MA Ray
White Belt
WTF Taekwondo, Muay Thai, and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Practitioner
Posts: 43
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Post by MA Ray on Jun 19, 2012 12:54:49 GMT -5
Just want to see which side has more fans and followers. ;D
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Chef Samurai
Global Moderator
Canadian Catch Wrestling
Posts: 843
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Post by Chef Samurai on Jun 19, 2012 12:58:37 GMT -5
I'm a fan & practitioner of both so +1 for both sides here ;D
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MA Ray
White Belt
WTF Taekwondo, Muay Thai, and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Practitioner
Posts: 43
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Post by MA Ray on Jun 19, 2012 13:04:55 GMT -5
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Post by Glutton4Punishment on Jun 19, 2012 14:42:28 GMT -5
I'll explain my choice. I picked Modern. It's actually not due to techniques, or the practice of Kata, or anything like that. It's entirely due to the atmosphere. I've trained in plenty of schools where the instructor demanded respect as the head of the class and there were plenty of silly formalities like bowing before stepping on the mat, bowing to a picture on the wall, bowing to the instructor before even being allowed to do anything like go to the restroom, etc. In many "Modern" schools, these formalities are practically extinct. I can stop what I'm doing in the gym and say "Hey Kru, I gotta piss. Be right back!" and it's all good. I can also talk to my Kru like he's a friend rather than some mentor that everybody has to put on a pedestal.
That's my preference when it comes to atmosphere. Like I said, I have no issue with Kata. No issues with flow drills or anything like that, either. Heck, Wing Chun's Chi Sau doesn't bug me UNLESS it's being used INSTEAD of sparring rather than in conjunction with it. I actually have nothing against traditional that's done well. I just prefer modern because in my experience the atmosphere is better and it's much harder to find a modern school with no sparring than a traditional school with no sparring (practically 90% of them that I know of).
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Keyboard Warrior
Head Administrator
Ze Führer
Brazilian Jiu Jitsu Practitioner
Posts: 721
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Post by Keyboard Warrior on Jun 19, 2012 20:41:51 GMT -5
I use to be a traditional practitioner. I practiced Chinese Kenpo for about 10 years. I'll be honest, it really changed me. I came in being a disrepectful, loud and just plain rude 6 year old boy, and it turned me into a "decent" human being. It taught me to respect people. I always had problems with authority, and Karate helped round me out, and calm me down. And hell, it even taught me how to fight. Not too shabby. But at some point, I simply stopped liking it. I hated the rituals, and the kata's and formalities as Glutton stated. So I stopped going.
Then I discovered MMA. Whereas Karate gave me respect and confidence, MMA humbled me. It taught me that I'm not as bad as I think I am, but it taught me that I could get there. Karate built me up. MMA brought me down, but would build me up even stronger than before. I loved MMA because it was just straight up about fighting. No bowing, no saluting, no kata's....just plain fighting. Do I think that stuff is ok? Yeah I do. Is it for everyone? No.
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Post by kokoro on Jun 19, 2012 23:20:28 GMT -5
most karate styles are from the 1900's, some time after the 1930's, tks about 1950's bjj is the early 1900's, muay thai from the 1500's
so how do you consider them modern and karate traditional? Funakshi Sensei is said to be the father of modern karate. you never here them say he is the father of traditional karate.
even so what techniques are not in either one. what tactics are not in either one?
Poem by Master Funakoshi. To search for the old is to understand the new. The old, the new This is a matter of time. In all things man must have a clear mind. The Way: Who will pass it on straight and well?
so with that i vote traditional, all the techniques are in modern and your so called modern is older then your traditional is it not would that not make it traditional as well
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Post by Glutton4Punishment on Jun 20, 2012 0:35:53 GMT -5
I think the reason we consider some arts Modern has less to do with age and more to do with training methods. Some styles adhere to old principles. Styles like Muay Thai do not. It's an evolving style that's focused on fighting and nothing more. Same with Jiu-Jitsu. What does the word Traditional imply? That traditions are emphasized. The tradition of bowing before walking into a studio, the tradition of starting class off by idolizing a picture of a grandmaster, the tradition of learning to count in another language because it's more proper than counting in one's own, and so on and so forth.
Sure, to some extent everything is traditional. But not every style EMPHASIZES traditional aspects. That's what separates traditional from modern in my mind.
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Post by kokoro on Jun 20, 2012 5:59:57 GMT -5
glutton that is true
i recently inherited a student, in shotokan, he also teaches, but he doesnt know any of the japanese, he dosent hang of of the pictures in his dojo, besides where the gi the only other part he does is the bowing, and not the full ceremony that i do. i have seen bjj schools do more bowing then his and they were gi's. yet he still considered him self traditional. terminology is always such a fine line. thai land as far as i know didnt do bowing like the japanese and chinese. and they were never emphases there culture like they did as well. or at least from what i have observed.
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odee
Global Moderator
Kyokushin 10 years - Brazilian Jujitsu 3 years - Muay Thai 2 years.
Posts: 1,286
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Post by odee on Jun 20, 2012 8:04:40 GMT -5
I dropped a line for both. Honestly sport sciences aside the defining feature of modern martial arts is the same thing that made traditional arts brilliant in the first place but seems to have been overtaken by an obsession with correct technique. Both truly traditional schools and modern schools focus on hard sparring in as many situations as possible, focusing on application of technique rather than perfection of technique. Students of traditional styles were ordered to use techniques in kumite until they worked, continual failure meant accumulated bruising and the student was always blamed for failure rather than the techniques. That's one thing I'll criticize about SOME modern schools, they give up on techniques too quickly rather than making it work. But many schools that claim themselves 'traditional' put too much blind faith in techniques without finding out if the individual is actually capable of using them.
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Post by peppermillk on Jun 20, 2012 11:38:15 GMT -5
I went with traditional. One main reason is that with TMAs they are something you can keep building on your whole life and improve with age. You can do karate for 30 years, be 60 years old and be able to out power, speed and spar student in their youth. But generally for modern arts mma specifically, its a young persons art. Once you`re out of your prime you can`t rly progress much further or worse yet you actually shift into reverse and lose abiltiy. So that's why I think TMAs (certain ones anyways) are the way to go.
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Post by Glutton4Punishment on Jun 20, 2012 13:44:54 GMT -5
^^^^^ I think a lot of that is a myth. Whether you do TMA or something Modern, you'll always hit your prime when it comes to using what you know to fight in your youth. That's just the way our bodies are. There's no style of martial art that will make you more capable than you were in your prime.
Also, my Kru is a fantastic example. He fought over 100 times in his career as a fighter in Thailand. If you look at him, he's in his 50's but looks like he's in his 30's and is the pinnacle of health. A lot of people look at styles like Muay Thai and think "There's no way those guys won't age badly and get arthritis." But I've never once met anybody that studied Muay Thai for a long, long time that has arthritis. Not even once.
And let's look at Helio Gracie and how he was still rolling in his 90's in great health. He always said he couldn't handle rolling hard with the younger generations, but that he'd be happy to play a round of "chess" when sparring and roll lightly. And when he did, he absolutely dominated everyone.
If you stay active and keep training, you can make training in any martial art into a lifelong pursuit.
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odee
Global Moderator
Kyokushin 10 years - Brazilian Jujitsu 3 years - Muay Thai 2 years.
Posts: 1,286
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Post by odee on Jun 20, 2012 17:02:44 GMT -5
A myth? It's pure horse shit. Professional martial artists retire from professional competition not from training in the martial arts. The reason competitive martial arts seem so basic is because they usually are. When you're facing off against a guy in the street there is a fair chance that he hasn't been in a real fight before or did it a long time ago, you can afford to use techniques that might be a bit over the top because the surprise element might lend itself to the attack. That surprise element doesn't exist when you face another experienced fighter in a competition, he knows you're a martial artist and possibly knows what you've practiced. The risk factor is higher because other fighters don't let opportunities slide, this brings it back to the old saying "I fear the man who has done one technique ten thousand times more than the guy who has done ten thousand techniques once" when fighting another fighter you step back to what you KNOW will work. That means the basics. That's also why styles like Aikido don't work well in MMA competitions. Aikido requires both a skill and an ability difference that is definitely possible with some twit on the street, but that kind of skill and ability difference is simply not going to happen in the professional fighting game. The guys peppermilk is talking about were never in the game.
Bas Rutten is retired with two busted knees but I'm willing to bet he still looks like Superman to the guys who train under him and I bet technique-wise he's still improving. Royce Gracie still trains and on a technical level is still improving. Chuck Liddell is over the hill on a physical level but he's still training and improving.
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Post by Glutton4Punishment on Jun 20, 2012 19:08:14 GMT -5
To be fair, Aikido isn't a fighting art anyway. It's a Budo art centered around pacifistic ideals and harmonizing with the opponent rather than beating them into submission. Realistically speaking, I don't see how there's any way to make something like that work as well in a fight as something like Judo which actually IS focused on efficiency and not pacifism. Hence why I tell those who say every martial art is effective that they're full of shit, and often flat out liars. If the martial art isn't constructed from the ground up for fighting, I don't see how it can be just as effective for fighting as one that is. That's why we don't see Kung Fu, Aikido, and other styles that are more self-development than fight succeeding in fights against guys from backgrounds even as limited as straight up boxing.
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odee
Global Moderator
Kyokushin 10 years - Brazilian Jujitsu 3 years - Muay Thai 2 years.
Posts: 1,286
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Post by odee on Jun 20, 2012 19:40:45 GMT -5
True. But you teach that straight up Boxer some Aikido and he'll have far more chance of using it than somebody who's only ever learned Aikido, he'll even be better for it. That's the part that amuses me. The techniques in Aikido work well but the people learning it often lack the ability to force an aggressor to suffer it.
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Post by jwbulldogs on Jun 20, 2012 20:29:43 GMT -5
My preference is TMA. But I'm not anti martial sports. I think they all have their place. I've said many times there is a difference between being a fighter and being a martial artist. But I do believe that you can be both. Many martial sports teach people to be fighters. that is not the focus of the training for a martial artist.
Aikido gets a bad rap. I believe this is mostly do to the fact that most people don't understand it and have prejudged it unfairly. I personally know those that have used their aikido training to defend themselves, bars, work on on duty working for the police department. I know one guy that served in the army and marines. He told me the story, but I can't remember it. I thought it was odd to b both. He was a drill instructor. He says that if the service would allow him to become active again he would. He started out in Okinawa Te. He was heavy into Kajukemo and was the official rep for the Midwest. He has several other styles like shotokan, shito ryu under his belt. I don't know all of the black belts he has earned. He started in the 50's I think. He is in his 70's now. He has been training in aikido now for the past 15 plus years. He says he wishes that he would have started aikido sooner and it would have been the only art that he had studied. He knows everyone that has been training for more than 30 years. They all know and respect him. He even met a guy at a bar in recent years that told him the he got hid 5th Dan from him. He never met this guy before, but he claims that he gave him his 5th Dan. The guy didn't know he was talking to the person that he claimed gave him his rank. He never told him who he was..lol Basically this guy lies to everyone about the lineage of his rank. When people here who awarded the rank the immediately accept him. They know he had to earn the rank if he got it from him. He has gotten away with that because no one knew where he was since he has been training and teaching aikido.
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