Chef Samurai
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Canadian Catch Wrestling
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Post by Chef Samurai on Dec 2, 2012 22:24:45 GMT -5
There has been debates for years about the difference between judo & bjj but unfortunately these debates have been between students of wrhorion gracie who is a fraud & lied about everything to do with bjj and cut out everyone not named helio and judoka so far removed from "traditional judo" that they are basically bad wrestlers with gis on.
But now we have videos of kosen judo available in action which looks like Basically Just Jiujitsu and it's pretty hard to deny.l
I don't mean any disrespect to bjj just to whrorion and his lies to market bjj in america at the expense of the truth.
Here's the videos-
I'm even surprised at the guard work & sweeps that the gracies supposedly invented ;p lol
To me they look like judo with bjj mixed in but it's not it's just pure judo in it's original unchanged form.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2012 2:31:10 GMT -5
Couldn't agree more. And some of the BJJ guys who follow Helio Gracies line ignore the role that his older brother Carlos played in not only starting BJJ but also in developing it.
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odee
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Kyokushin 10 years - Brazilian Jujitsu 3 years - Muay Thai 2 years.
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Post by odee on Dec 5, 2012 16:06:10 GMT -5
Advertising 101. Never tell the world that they can get your shit elsewhere.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2012 22:53:06 GMT -5
Advertising 101. Never tell the world that they can get your shit elsewhere. True that!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2012 22:53:37 GMT -5
And Kimura did beat Helio Gracie too LOL!
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Chef Samurai
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Canadian Catch Wrestling
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Post by Chef Samurai on Dec 5, 2012 23:17:13 GMT -5
And Kimura did beat Helio Gracie too LOL! Yeah he beat him with the video I posted in the grappling section a while ago & I've been playing with it with little success because I am no Kumura lol.
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Chef Samurai
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Canadian Catch Wrestling
Posts: 843
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Post by Chef Samurai on Dec 5, 2012 23:22:35 GMT -5
Advertising 101. Never tell the world that they can get your shit elsewhere. I couldn't have said it better myself! And what's really sad is the bjj craze in japan is a fraud... The main guy doing it is a kosen judoka who got an honorary black belt from a gracie after cleaning out a bjj tournament, with no experience or training in bjj... so most japanese jiui jitero are really kosen judoka under the gracie banner which is a sad & gross way to get bjj into japan.
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odee
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Kyokushin 10 years - Brazilian Jujitsu 3 years - Muay Thai 2 years.
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Post by odee on Dec 6, 2012 18:24:01 GMT -5
Now THAT is interesting. I was always amused by their ravings about 90% of fights winding up on the ground but that is a beauty. Kind of rings with Ninjutsu a bit. The head goose in Bujinkan helped re-animate shinobi Taijutsu using Judo as his martial knowledge base...then turned around and stabbed his groupies to take all the credit.
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Chef Samurai
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Canadian Catch Wrestling
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Post by Chef Samurai on Dec 6, 2012 18:36:27 GMT -5
hmmm that's interesting I had no idea that happened lol
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odee
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Kyokushin 10 years - Brazilian Jujitsu 3 years - Muay Thai 2 years.
Posts: 1,286
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Post by odee on Dec 6, 2012 18:54:07 GMT -5
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Chef Samurai
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Canadian Catch Wrestling
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Post by Chef Samurai on Dec 7, 2012 4:19:27 GMT -5
Damn I read to page 11 and now I'm brain dead from other peoples stupidity from that site...
Those sites are a good reason why the net shouldn't exist because it creates a place for idiots to think they are gods & have other idiots worship their stupidity as if it were not so stupid because of the group it surpasses all others vastly... and you get hundreds of thousands of them together and you have a giant never ending circle jerk lol
But enough ranting & back to the topic...
Martial Arts can be tricky when it comes to lineage and such because so much can change within a single generation alone like judo lost 90% of it's newaza but it's still considered traditional even though it's drastically changed form it's traditional roots and it's still called judo so what does that leave for the guys who still do the old school judo? do they just give it up and assimilate with the rest or create a new sub style that emphasizes what the main sub style neglects?
But some take it a step further and do something to try to differentiate themselves from the others like lying about their origins...
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Post by Glutton4Punishment on Dec 7, 2012 9:40:11 GMT -5
Just my own opinion after 1 year with Judo and a few months with BJJ... Well, I definitely wouldn't call them the same. There are LOADS of parralels, of course, and I suspect that somebody with 20 years of either is likely going to have the same skillset, but it will be invested differently. What I mean is this: Judo, at least for the most part, and as we all know, is throw focused in most cases. BJJ, on the other hand, is Ne Waza focused. It's no mystery why this fight turned out the way it did:
So of course they're LOADED with parallels, but still in essence have their own flavors. I've never seen an Omoplata locked down by a Judoka with no BJJ experience, after all. (It's probably happened, but rare)
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Chef Samurai
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Canadian Catch Wrestling
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Post by Chef Samurai on Dec 7, 2012 16:56:45 GMT -5
Just my own opinion after 1 year with Judo and a few months with BJJ... Well, I definitely wouldn't call them the same. There are LOADS of parralels, of course, and I suspect that somebody with 20 years of either is likely going to have the same skillset, but it will be invested differently. What I mean is this: Judo, at least for the most part, and as we all know, is throw focused in most cases. BJJ, on the other hand, is Ne Waza focused. It's no mystery why this fight turned out the way it did: So of course they're LOADED with parallels, but still in essence have their own flavors. I've never seen an Omoplata locked down by a Judoka with no BJJ experience, after all. (It's probably happened, but rare) I'm not comparing modern olympic sport judo where the rules change every year & is now greco-roman wrestling with a gi on which is vastly different than traditional kano judo... and kano judo has tons of leg locks & stuff thats in bjj but lost in modern olympic sport judo due to 100 years of rules change. Basically kano jiu jitsu broke up into bjj & olympic judo as 2 different rule sets where one focuses on ne-waza & where one focuses on nage-waza almost exclusively. Like modern bjj has a few takedowns and a lot of ground word & modern judo has a lot of takedowns & a bit of ground fighting and together the rules & style would be much closer to kanos origianla style. heres tetsune oda doing an omaplata or a ashi-sankaku-garami as it's called in judo and it's rare these days because the rules ban shoulder locks and you will lose a modern olympic rules judo match using one so few practice it because most train olympic rules. the main problem arises because too many olympic judo players (I refuse to call them judoka) are doing judo their way & not kanos way it's pretty simple. technically the jiujitero are doing things closer to the way the old judoka did it's really because old judoka had a strong emphasis on newaza. Like an old judo class would have been like a mixed bjj & modern judo class in one where you get thrown around a lot but instead of ending it there they follow up with newaza & there are still schools that teach it but they are rare like my old one that taught me leglocks & neck cranks that are illegal in the olympic rules but in a real fight work great.
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Chef Samurai
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Canadian Catch Wrestling
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Post by Chef Samurai on Dec 7, 2012 17:21:09 GMT -5
I forgot to mention the only "real" difference I noticed is the positional hierarchy in bjj is modified from the throw to sub heirarchy in judo as in the do it in judo but differently...
an arm throw done right should flow into an arm lock and a leg throw should fall into a leg lock if done right instead of playing around for position they get it RIGHT from the throw!! then if that fails they go through the ground game & thats a big difference in the 2 styles because bjj iust right to the ground game and modern judo is just the throws...
And judo has pins and bjj doesn't but that has to do with the flow from my understanding.
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Post by Glutton4Punishment on Dec 7, 2012 17:51:02 GMT -5
So in a sense, BJJ is more Judo than most Judo? Nice!
I'm glad we have a Martial Arts History buff around. Looking at older stuff like that almost gives a voice to the art itself.
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