Chef Samurai
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Canadian Catch Wrestling
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Post by Chef Samurai on Jun 25, 2012 15:27:14 GMT -5
every style has grappling & striking in it just many styles lost over time with rule changes.
if you were to take muay thai and only use the kicks & tournaments were all kicking would it have evolved for the better or worse?
or if you take bjj and make it pure chokes would it have evolved for the better?
that's what happened to all sport styles they were complete & rules made them not so complete.
I have yet to find a style that doesn't have striking & grappling in it except its sport variation like gjj has striking but bjj doesn't and judo has striking but olympic judo doesn't and taekwondo has grappling but olympic tkd doesn't.
every style has 2 sides to the same coin.
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Post by Glutton4Punishment on Jun 26, 2012 3:12:55 GMT -5
I have yet to find a "complete" style. You can argue that Karate has grappling, but you can't argue that it's grappling is anywhere near as developed as BJJ's. You can argue that Judo has great strikes, but you can't argue that Judo's strikes are anywhere near as developed as Muay Thai's. Of course how you train has a lot to do with things, but just about every martial art has a stronger focus on one area and strategy than others. Karate has a focus on striking, Judo has a focus on grappling, and so on. Mixing is still the best way to create a "complete" style of fighting. No Martial Art is totally all-inclusive when it comes to fighting techniques.
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Post by kokoro on Jun 26, 2012 5:52:40 GMT -5
I have yet to find a "complete" style. You can argue that Karate has grappling, but you can't argue that it's grappling is anywhere near as developed as BJJ's. im going to add to this a bit. or expand on it. some karate style have or rather teaching emphasizes much more grappling and ground work then others, a few more the 50% of the style, (very few) even though it should be more but most people dont teach that way bjj is ground grappling or emphasizes this part, being on the ground and being able to demolish anyone, form a stand up style. there are plenty of styles that have far more grappling then bjj but Not the ground work. there ground work was built around sport rules. the ground work in martial arts on the battle field was built around a different goal and mind set. it the battle field if you stayed on the ground you died. your object was to do damage on the way down, more damage once you got there and then get back up before some one killed you. ground fighting is not just grappling it is striking as well, with everyone looking at bjj the forget ground fighting is also about striking and both are used on the way to the ground and once you hit the ground.
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Post by Glutton4Punishment on Jun 26, 2012 17:13:21 GMT -5
[BJJ's] ground work was built around sport rules. This is actually not true. I'm not sure where the idea comes from that a style was developed for a sport, but the Gracies developed their Jiu-Jitsu with striking methods, self defense techniques against bare hands, knives, and firearms, and a good number of techniques that are not allowed in competition. The competition is there for people to test their skills in a controlled setting, just as it is with nearly anything else. The sport is built around what the style emphasizes most. Are there schools that don't teach the full Gracie Jiu-Jitsu curriculum in favor of teaching things that apply to the sport only? Of course! But that doesn't change the history of the art.
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Post by kokoro on Jun 26, 2012 17:43:25 GMT -5
@glutton it probley comes form the idea of me reading too much fanboy crap, and few people posting anything else about it
yes even i make mistakes at times.. lol... bjj history is not my strong point
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odee
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Kyokushin 10 years - Brazilian Jujitsu 3 years - Muay Thai 2 years.
Posts: 1,286
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Post by odee on Jun 26, 2012 18:08:15 GMT -5
I actually buy into the idea that there are striking styles and grappling styles. There's this little thing called ability.
It really doesn't matter if there are throws in a Karate kata and the Karateka knows about it. If he doesn't practice them on a resisting opponent he can't guarantee being able to do them when the situation calls for it. I know damn well that Judoka have striking ability, I wore a "Judo Kick" in the mouth that put me on my ass. I still doubt the striking ability of most Judoka because they don't practice striking.And in spite of being floored by that single student once I got my nerve back he gave up striking because I proved to be better at it.
If the emphasis is on that facet then that is what the style becomes known for. Gracie Jujitsu evolved from Judo - groundwork from throwing because it targeted the lack of groundwork practiced by the Martial Arts community as a whole. The major victories claimed by BJJ students have been via submission which is how everyone knows it as a submission art. If Royce Gracie had ended a single one of his matches by knock-out it would have been recognised as a well rounded art.
Karate USED to be a grappling emphasised style but has made it's name as a striking style because that is what the vast majority of its students excell in. In the ten years that I studied Karate I'd bet I only put six months of effort into throwing and grappling combined. That makes me a striker, since that's about the ratio my school practices that makes my school a striking school, since that's similar to most Kyokushin schools that makes Kyokushin a striking style, since most Karate styles emphasise striking it makes Karate a striking art.
Frankly hidden in Kata doesn't count for much. If you can't do it it's not yours.
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Chef Samurai
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Post by Chef Samurai on Jun 26, 2012 20:22:54 GMT -5
odee- true enough man if you don't train it you cant do it well but you cant generalize all krte schools don't train their grappling against lie resisting opponents because some schools do. and I had similar experience with judo with straight punch to the nose that I didn't expect tht really rocked me. even gracie jiujitsu has a clause to add street effective strikes & it's still gracie jiu jitsu. @glutton you have to look closer because I've only found a handful of incomplete systems most have striking, grappling, clinch fighting & ground fighting since there are no rules against it and its up to the practitioner wiether they train there karate according to karate rules against other karateka or train their karate under judo rules against a judoka or training their karate against wrestlers under wrestling rules. that's the human element.
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Post by gunter on Jun 26, 2012 20:59:28 GMT -5
What about Hapkido? It has striking and grappling. Some schools even teach ground fighting with the traditional part from aki-jiujitsu and influence of BJJ.
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Chef Samurai
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Post by Chef Samurai on Jun 26, 2012 21:07:39 GMT -5
@guntur- aikijutsu always had ground fighting and so did hapkido but not everyone practices it to the same extant as they do other things and generalizing everyone under those arts is wrong because everyone is different & cant do everything their teacher did since bodies are different shapes & minds think differently it's impossible to replicate your masters style 100% perfectly in every aspect and that's the human element I talk about so much.
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Post by Glutton4Punishment on Jun 27, 2012 10:58:42 GMT -5
I don't mean this to sound like I'm putting you on the spot, I'm just genuinely curious. Chef, do you have any material you can show us that depicts things like Karate Ne Waza or anything similar? Basically anything like grappling in a striking focused art and vice versa? Video and some pics would be cool so that we can judge exactly how "complete" some styles are for ourselves.
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Post by kokoro on Jun 27, 2012 12:41:17 GMT -5
glutton, shindokai is one the few that has competition that includes na waza and atami waza
its not easy finding decent videos though
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Chef Samurai
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Post by Chef Samurai on Jun 27, 2012 13:40:44 GMT -5
no problem glutton heres some crazy karate grappling heres some random stuff that shows some chokes & spine cranks etc www.scribd.com/doc/87773111/2005-Bunkai-the-Lost-Soul-of-Karate-Graham-Palmerremember there are no rules in karate to stop karateka from grappling & if you understand bunkai & oyo karate becomes a whole different thing than what your average black belt knows it to be.
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Post by Glutton4Punishment on Jun 27, 2012 14:11:44 GMT -5
I do see some Ne Waza in Kokoro's vids, but it's not the type of Ne Waza that one would see in BJJ. Are there any better examples? I don't mean to say that they don't look like they know what they're doing, but their Ne Waza seems to be something buried under all the striking that they just pull out very quickly. I'm not sure I'd say they could hang in Ne Waza with a Judoka or BJJ Player. In that case, the style wouldn't be something I'd call "Complete" to the same level it could be with cross training.
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Post by kokoro on Jun 27, 2012 14:23:47 GMT -5
i was trying to find the completion were they separate the two of them, one half is ground the other stand up. i think frank the tank posted one once.
shindokai i have never studied, so i dont know how in-depth they get. although i have seen some koryu done when i trained with Sensei Patrick Maccathy that would compete with judo and possible bjj. he is an x-shoot fighter. they did a few moves i haven't seen judo or bjj do.
i'll see what others i can find later
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Chef Samurai
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Post by Chef Samurai on Jun 27, 2012 14:43:39 GMT -5
you don't necessarily have to cross train they could just train their respective styles against one another and adapt accordingly which is what bunkai & oyo are all about.
there could be 50 applications to one movement but how many do you know?
You can learn by practicing against different people just by playing around a bit because not everything is taught at face value.
there is a good book by ian abernathy called bunkai-jutsu that has a ton of ne-waza I wish I could find it again & if I can I'll send it to you.
and your confusing gracie jiu jitsu with generic brazilian jiu jitsu which is like comparing real judo to olympic judo or sport muay thai to real muay thai.
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