Chef Samurai
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Canadian Catch Wrestling
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Post by Chef Samurai on Aug 14, 2012 23:29:50 GMT -5
I disagree odee, sure they teach you to stay & fight and be tough but that fails to teach them to defend themselves.
A traditional martial artist should never think about winning because winning could involve getting hurt, which if it happens you failed to defend yourself and in reality you lose.
If I pop your balls and maim you for life no matter what you do to me you already lost your balls and real good traditional martial arts teach you to avoid that.
A knockout's a knock out and you get up but losing my balls is a big deal, well it is to me anyways idk if you care about your balls or not lol and there is no recovery from that.
Real traditional martial arts are geurilla warfare based inside & out and are supposed to be hit & run like a straight on breaking knee kick followed by an elbow to the spine then run away to deal with your next problem.
You never want to stay & engage in a prolonged fight unless your the better stronger force just like war.
The biggest rpoblem I have with sports martial arts is like boxing teaches you good punching but what does a boxer who only knows how to punch do when he is against a better puncher?
or a judo athlete vs a better thrower or a jiujitero vs a better submissionist or a nak muay against a better striker etc?.. they get beat it and the proof is it happens every single one of their matches lol
sure kyokushin sport sparing is good against a biker wearing a helmet you said odee because you can;t punch his head but what does it teach you about him having you mounted and headbutting your face with his helmet? I know it's in the style but an athlete who only knows the sport won't know what to do.
Same with a nak muay in a plum clinch and the biker started headbutting your face with his helmet then does the above?
Once you can look past the sport and see the real style you would be surprised how in depth it is as long as it hasn't been watered down too far like modern boxing persay because that's a good way to get stabbed by going head to head instead of hitting & running.
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odee
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Post by odee on Aug 15, 2012 2:02:13 GMT -5
Chef there are worse things in life than busted nuts, death for instance, blindness for another, how about injury to someone you care about? Injuries are not the end of the world and since you can't guarantee not picking injuries up no matter what you practice it's better to spend time working on your ability to fight through those injuries than to consider them the end of the story. I've forced myself to fight on with broken ribs, a messed up back and legs that I had to force movement from. I know I can suffer injury and keep going. The same is true of properly traditional artists. If you get busted up on the battlefield making sure the guy who put you down doesn't get your comrades becomes top priority. On the street you might have to make sure the guy who put you down can't hurt your friends, family or date. Functional nuts aren't going to be the most important thing when somebody wants to hurt or even kill people you care about. Avoiding trouble doesn't take any special training, self preservation is something humans do fairly well on instinct alone. For many people being able to stand and fight does take training, clarity under pressure takes training, giving yourself the best possible chance of fighting successfully takes even more. If a Boxer faces somebody who is a superior Boxer to him he will most likely be beaten, if any kind of Martial Artist faces another Martial Artist of superior skill they will most likely be beaten by them but at least someone of decent training can make the attempt, to try and stop someone from hurting those you consider precious. Just like fighting, running is not always an option, sometimes leaving isn't even an option.
If somebody manages to put me down and headbutt me with a helmet I'm likely going to have a mess made out of my face no matter what I practice but if I had a reason to stay for that fight then I'd probably be less worried about my looks than I would be about that reason for getting in a fight to begin with. Just like my nuts there are things I find more precious than my face. On top of that I'm an ugly fuck, copping a face-full of helmet might be an improvement.
Read my second last post again and you'll see what I said about believing Traditional styles are better but not believing that most schools teach them. It's not about sport vs non-sport, my statement was about priorities and the biggest priorities in learning martial arts are fighting ability and courage, to get those sometimes takes a bit or a lot of pain and squaring off against people who intend to win at your expense.
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odee
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Post by odee on Aug 16, 2012 19:34:10 GMT -5
Sosai Oyama was a brilliant teacher himself but there were and are better teachers within his organisation. People Oyama quite proudly acknowledged before sending them out to help spread quality Kyokushin to the world. Oyama was the creator, greatest martial artist and head of his style but he wasn't the best teacher. This is where he differs from the others mentioned. Oyama Masutatsu was and is the only 10th dan in Kyokushin yet he acknowledged people as far down as 3rd dan to be better teachers than himself. So yes it is possible to get better study under a 3rd dan than from under a 10th dan no matter how gifted that particular 10th dan is as a martial artist. I'm told it was an extreme honour when Oyama visited your school for a seminar but this is made more interesting considering that some schools possessed a teacher who was known to be a better teacher than the creator himself. I spent five years in Kyokushin with complete clarity that I would never advance beyond my 1st dan because I have a stutter and would never make a good teacher but I continued learning the more advanced lessons, skill and abilitywise I was easily a match for most 2nd dans but there were 1st kyu who were and are better teachers than I am. If not for my move interstate I would have quite happily continued to stay at 1st dan and continue learning under my excellent 3rd and 4th dan teachers. I'll also point out that while being a good teacher will get you beyond 1st dan there are different levels of teaching ability, I've met 7th dans who are good teachers and 3rd dans who are excellent teachers.
I believe most of the people here are training at good schools, however there is always the but. I believe Rikashiku when he claims he was taught at a good Bujinkan Ninjutsu school but I also know from both experience and research that good is far above par for the vast majority of schools belonging to that particular style. I believe Possum is learning good Taekwando but both Possum and I are well aware that Possum's school is better than most. I learned good Karate from a good school but the sad fact is there are many more who have learned Karate that has more in common with Ballet or dancing, they use the same techniques but they can't apply them and they spurt the "too dangerous" nonsense to cover that. This is a problem that exists in traditional styles but not in full-contact combat sports. There is no way of pulling the "traditional smoke-screen" down to cover lacking areas and lacking in ability frankly bothers me more than lacking in technique. It doesn't matter if a Boxer doesn't know how to grapple or kick, the vast majority of Boxers can apply their Boxing skills on a resisting opponent, it irks me when a Karateka knows how to kick, punch, clinch and grapple but can't actually use them on a resisting target.
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odee
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Post by odee on Aug 18, 2012 20:22:11 GMT -5
There is very little that 4th and 5th dan teachers don't know. By that point in time you are expected to KNOW your martial art. Beyond that most grades in most styles are awarded due to service to the style and time spent as part of the style rather than advancement in knowledge or skill, people's bodies are usually going downhill by that point anyway. I constantly say that there is no such thing as mastery because you can never become too good at any technique but it is possible to know the syllabus inside out, everyone from 4th dan upwards usually falls into that category for most Japanese influenced styles.
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Chef Samurai
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Canadian Catch Wrestling
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Post by Chef Samurai on Sept 17, 2012 19:58:54 GMT -5
if there isn't much a 4th or 5th dan don't know than why is there 6 - 10 more belts to go for them???
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odee
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Post by odee on Oct 10, 2012 5:31:10 GMT -5
To puff up egos and make someone the leader, why do you think no legitimate martial artist has them before fifty which incidently enough is when they can no longer become physically stronger? It's to keep that accumulated knowledge available to the organisation, school and style. Fifth dan and beyond are just service awards to keep good teachers from feeling like they've stalled and looking for new challenges.
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rikashiku
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Post by rikashiku on Oct 12, 2012 3:41:43 GMT -5
Traditional is more badass because it has a long history of feats.
Modern is barely decent because its only feats are in a squared circle... sometimes a real circle.
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Post by Glutton4Punishment on Oct 12, 2012 17:50:41 GMT -5
Modern is more badass because it's "history of feats" is actually real and not fabricated. You can actually find proof of modern fighting working in t3h d34dly STREETZ! You can't really find much on TMA.
How many badass legendary TMA tales can we verify as 100% true? I'd be interested in seeing that.
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odee
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Post by odee on Oct 12, 2012 18:08:53 GMT -5
You know not one of the people or groups that created styles like Karate, Jujutsu or Kenpo would have considered themselves to be traditionalists. They were modernists, they were people who took note of what worked for others and tried it for themselves in sparring, competition and war until they compiled a functioning method of martial art that was effective for them.
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rikashiku
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Post by rikashiku on Oct 13, 2012 1:50:13 GMT -5
Gee Glutton, sorry for telling the ancient martial artist for not having video cameras ready before a fight started. Marines practicing Taekwondo in vietnam. 3.bp.blogspot.com/-Cyxz9j6aVRQ/TZF_pMOxu_I/AAAAAAAACvI/bxV7scoGAYE/s1600/KoreanMarines_Vietnam_Flickr_manhhai.jpgAlexander Nevsky led an army of Druzhina, who were practiced in an older form of Systema. Quilombo warriors caused problems for Dragoons in South America, using Capoiera. The Quilombo were even recruited into Portugese military forces because of their martial art. www.bbc.co.uk/news/10130346Oh look, traditional working in the street without starting a fight. What is it you keep saying about Ninja despite lack of experience? Ever heard of Ng Mui, no? guess you can't say much more about traditional martial arts then. You don't even have the "streets", let alone actual warzones.
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Post by peppermillk on Oct 13, 2012 6:21:57 GMT -5
ur right i went to sum karate place and it was full of young teenagers and it seemed soft. but enjoyable, interesting, tram work fun sorta stuff thats why it was soft. kids were socialising and joking etc. the school im at now... my teacher learnt in china. cos he was white he just got beat on for the most part of his training, etc etc. in his classes u arent allowed to joke, talke even u have to train hard and u always get solid training. he gets ppl on the verge of tears in sparring and these r full grown men who r tough. i was gonna quite initially but i kept at it and now im kinda hooked. i enjoy it even tho its hard. i believe its a legitimate traditional school. if i wanted to have fun fun id go back to the karate place or meet my friends. but no.. i wanna learn a real martial art the right way and i think im on track. overall... and im totally bias but i just plain dont like modern arts. mainly referring to mma here. just the fact that fitness level seems to play a bigger roll than technique most the time. and if u watch ufc they just go to the ground more than half the time and dont engage that much kinda faking in and out and idk just hate to watch it. and that carries thru to traditional styles too sometimes u see people not engage or resort quickly to grappling or wrestling. but thats cos they're not true masters or they've probably trained in a not so authentic TMA. .. and to odee. i double disagree;) u cant do too much kata. like obviously doing it soley as ur training or doing it 10 hours a day. yea. but to a reasonable level of training lots and lots of kata is great. its just practicing ur form and technique. and thats what training should incorporate. u still of course have to train all areas kata is just one component but not to be overlooked
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odee
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Post by odee on Oct 15, 2012 6:51:34 GMT -5
I agree that kata is a great thing but it should never EVER be put ahead of sparring. Kata is something to practice alone, when you have no partner to work with, there are plenty of opportunities for that at some point in your day any day of the week and then five minutes after class to show it to your teacher or a higher grade for critique and possibly another five for some bunkai testing. How often do you have sparring partners through-out the week? Dancers aren't martial artists and neither are people who don't spar hard or often.
Ng Moi is still considered as a fictional character even by Wing Chun artists. How does she prove anything?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2012 23:08:38 GMT -5
Ng Mui is a hard individual to talk about for certain. Was there a real Ng Mui? Likely yes but not what the story says. It is most likely that the name Ng Mui was a cover for one of the leaders of the Anti-Qing resistance group such as the Red Opera group. They were rebels who wished to bring back the Ming dynasty.
In my view Ng Mui (and the other 4 elders) was a cover name for a resistance or Anti-Qing leader. And Wing Chun is a bit younger than the cover story of Ng Mui teaching her art to the woman to use against a male suitor. It was made in southern China for use against the Qing army by such groups as the Red Opera group etc.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2012 23:11:57 GMT -5
Sosai Oyama himself was a big fan of Tai Chi Chuan and was beaten by an elderly Tai Chi Chuan master in Hong Kong. One of his rare defeats. He put some of it in his Karate but I understand it is rarely taught since his death. Bruce Lee too. rikashiku, great picture of the Marines. I'm fairly sure that SifuFrank on Yahoo answers started his Taekwondo whilst he was serving in Vietnam. There is plenty of evidence that Karate and Kung Fu works if you look.
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odee
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Post by odee on Oct 16, 2012 1:32:56 GMT -5
Trying to track down where a lot of the Kyokushin syllabus came from will give you nightmares, I can tell you that much from experience, some of it came from styles Oyama learned like Eighteen Hands Kenpo, Boxing, Aikijutsu, Judo, Shotokan and Goju-ryu other stuff he just picked up from people he faught, people he watched fight, people he trained with and even videos of other martial artists Oyama never learned Muay Thai but there is a massive influence from it in Kyokushin. Thai Chi was never really taught as more than small elements in Kyokushin, it was and is still considered to be one of the better places to go for recovery when you get busted. I doubt the guy who beat Oyama did nothing but kata, after all there is a massive difference between Tai Chi that is taught for fighting and what gets taught in community halls and retirement villages, students of that kind of Tai Chi spar hard and spar often.
All the great heroes that people form their traditions around and quote as success stories of their style - be it Karate, Kenpo, other Chinese martial arts, Muay Thai, Kenjutsu, Jiujitsu, Jujutsu, Taijutsu, Taekwando or Aikido. Those heroes were modernists, they weren't satisfied with what they'd learned so they learned more or they modified it or added to it. The best mindset a martial artist can have is to diligently learn what they're taught but never be satisfied with it or themselves.
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