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Post by peppermillk on Jul 4, 2012 0:08:10 GMT -5
Basically this is just why I prefer TMA and think that it sumtimes gets a bad wrap. Firstly it just has so much more to learn. Like I'm not sure about every TMA (asian ones I'm refering to btw) but it appears that way to me. I see kickboxing for example as a style where you learn the basics, the foundations of the style, and from there its like a pyramid. You know the bulk basics then you learn smaller amounts of extra things like tricky moves or advanced footwork idk whatever they learn on top of that. But for TMA`s its like an upside down trapezium:P u have the foundation, but then u progress to the next level, again and again and just keep learning knew moves or applications or understanding how things work especially if u have an internal system then you have points when u just have completely knew revelations about the system. U can do the art for 20 years but still have loads to discover. I might have it wrong but I don't think u could do kickboxing for 20 years and not know everything about it. Its just that TMA`s are more longterm styles. And to extend from that, that's one reason I believe they get bad wraps. Because they are long term they take long periods of time learn and get them to function properly. I believe they develope at a slower rate than modern martial arts but have far more potential. And that's why they can be mistaken as not so great when you compare them to say MMA. U can do MMA for 5 years and be very profitiant in the style. But you can do a TMA for 5 years and still be in the weak beginner stages of the system because it may have multiple years of just developing your foundation before you really get into the true strength of the art. So when you compare 5 years of MMA to 5 years of a TMA it can be very outweighted but also misleading. If you compare 20 years of each style by then the TMA would surely have moderate to high profitiancy in the sytle and I think you`d see that TMA aren't sumthing you think little of. I have other thoughts of course on this but I thionk that's long enough. Just want to see whether people agree or not because to me that makes perfect sense and I really do think TMAs aren't a waste of time and nothing compared to modern ones as sum peopler think
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Post by Glutton4Punishment on Jul 4, 2012 0:45:13 GMT -5
Who said TMA were a waste of time? Most of the time I see more insults coming from the TMA side than from the modern side. TMA guys like to dismiss all evidence of the advancement of modern styles and say that they're all "just sports". Modern guys usually tend to like a lot of TMA styles, but not for the same reasons as a total TMA nuthugger. I recognize how much enjoyment potential there is in a TMA. But in the end, modern styles have a greater focus on fighting no matter how you look at it.
What are your goals as a martial artist? Do you want something you can do for a long time and not get bored? Does always having new things to learn excite you? Great, do a TMA style. Do you want to learn how to fight effectively at a quick rate so that you can get the moves down fast and then just focus on staying sharp? Do something modern.
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Post by peppermillk on Jul 4, 2012 1:51:14 GMT -5
Rly? Well my experience has been different also I was saying it from a more person view of people I know who train in mma and stuff like that. I wasn't specifying anyone from on here particularly. Usually the mma guys around my area think they`re top shit so yea why I was saying. Greater focus on fighting?? What u mean exactly. They`re martial arts fighting is what they focus on. Ifa anything id say modern focus less on fighting as they include more fitness training in their regimes. Also I don't think your little quiz would be very reliable modern and traditional arts are too interchangeable in those instances I recon.
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Post by Glutton4Punishment on Jul 4, 2012 2:04:18 GMT -5
Let's take a look at Muay Thai for a moment. Very modern training methods. You jump right in, you don't learn any forms, you just start learning techniques right away. Almost right off the bat you start sparring and in no time at all you work up to full contact. From the moment you step in the door, you're training to fight. Your fitness is important because you don't know how long a fight is going to last and you need to be able to go the distance.
Now let's look at Aikido. I know, it's a polar opposite, but I'm going to use it to illustrate my point anyway. Aikido isn't directly aimed at fighting. It's a very peaceful art and its focus on "harmonizing" with the opponent inherently makes it more difficult to learn to apply. You can spend YEARS getting to the point that you're ready to use Aikido to defend yourself.
Sure, there are plenty of shades of gray, but when it comes down to it a more modern style wants to get you ready to fight FAST and with no Kata or anything like that to slow you down. Traditional styles are looking to develop more than just fighting skills, but that usually means learning to fight at a slower speed as well. There aren't a lot of Kung Fu practitioners that can exhibit exceptional fighting skills in only 6 months. But there are Muay Thai and Jiu-Jitsu practitioners that can hold their own with much more experienced fighters from other styles after only 6 months.
Like I said, it isn't because TMA are bad or anything. It's just that Modern styles are very straightforward and usually designed to get people proficient as quickly as possible. TMA styles tend to have less time dedicated to fight specific training than a modern style because they also dedicate time to things like forms/Kata, flow drills, meditation, etc.
Another point I'd like to make is based on a point of your own. A lot of people want to learn a lot of techniques, but more fight focused styles implement fewer techniques on purpose. It goes with the old saying: "I'm not afraid of a man who knows thousands of techniques, but I'm weary of a man who's practiced one technique thousands of times."
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Post by peppermillk on Jul 4, 2012 5:27:56 GMT -5
Okay I get u yea. When you said focus on fighting I was thinking I was thinking that all aspects on training combine to develope fighting technique but now I know what you mean as in the actual act of fighting in real time and intensity etc. And ii know that the learning timeframe can differ from one style to the next yes mauy thai can be picked up much faster without beating round the bush with all this other stuff you learn in aikido(not that its unimportant). But there are still traditional styles which can be learnt and utilized effectively in short periods of time. That's what I was getting at, that questions like that can't always be used to destinguish between modern and TMAs. And just to make clear on that last part I wasn`t entirely saying that we have more techniques to learn but just more in general. For instance with the first form(kata) we learn in my style I know it pretty well and think I'm doing it perfectly but my sifu always reminds me of parts of I'm forgetting or adding extra things for me to think about. My sihing has been training for 8 years and his sifu still adds things onto his form for him to incorporate into it that he never thought about before. So if after 8 years you can still be corrected on your first form( and that's just your first not to mention all the progressive ones) in terms of which muscles to ingage and disengage how to breathe or where the body tension should be emphisised, that what I mean about there being plenty more to learn. Its not necessarily about more quantity but the dig deeper into the quality of what you already have. I'm sure modern arts also have this of course but I feel traditional ones have much more to explore and refine within their technique
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Post by kokoro on Jul 4, 2012 5:43:16 GMT -5
it boils down to how you train if you want to be a pro mma fighter and train for 5 years you wont be training 3 hours a week. you will more likely be training 3 hrs a day tma most people who train for 5 yrs train for 3 hours a week.
now they both trained for 5 yrs but look at the hours they put in, there not going to be equivalent. soon the surface when both people tell you they trained for 5 yrs. but they dont mention how many hours they trained. when you look at the level of training its completely different.
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Post by peppermillk on Jul 4, 2012 5:54:24 GMT -5
Well of course everyones different. Not all mma trainers want to go pro and not all traditional trainers want to go hardcore and then sum don't want to train outside of class and just sort of sail thru training and that's it for them. But even so I still know people who train in TMAs who are very dedicated and put in daaily training but still it is a long process because there are parts of TMAs that cannot be rushed.
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Post by kokoro on Jul 4, 2012 6:10:48 GMT -5
when most people compare the two that is what they are comparing they dont see the the difference nor do they understand. hence why tma gets a bad wrap. even people that dont train fro pro mma many of them train longer hours then tma.
even training tma for 15 to 20 hours a week it can take decades just to understand the style. i have been doing shotokan for over 30yrs, and i know there is still a lot for me to learn. at times i feel like a barley scratch the surface
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odee
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Kyokushin 10 years - Brazilian Jujitsu 3 years - Muay Thai 2 years.
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Post by odee on Jul 4, 2012 8:52:45 GMT -5
I'd actually dispute Aikido being traditional at all. First of all Aikido is a newer style than Muay Thai, being in the 50-70 year bracket while Muay Thai is in the 70-90 year range. Second of all Aikido is derrived from a style designed for war then built around pacifistic ideals. Japanese Jujutsu - The style that Aikido was derrived from was for one thing and one thing only, neutralising threats in the most efficient way possible, no holds barred, no harmonising, no mercy, no sympathy. The practice of not using moves considered too dangerous was unheard of, saying something like that in Samurai boot camp would have you laughed at in the best case scenario and used as a target for others to test their deadly strikes on in the worst. I'll also point out that the practice of challenging other schools in sword and empty handed duels to the death were also common-place. Call me if I'm wrong on this but not a lot of 'Traditional' schools buy into this practice anymore. People are right in saying that styles built for war have nothing to prove. However, the practitioner's worth is always up for question. It's all good to say that the person who designed your style killed a hundred people with those techniques but the question remains "Can YOU do it?" if you can't it's like carrying a gun without realising you lack the strength in your finger to pull the trigger.
Styles like Karate and Capoeira hid their fighting techniques in kata and dance movements so they could practice right under the eyes of their oppressors, be it samurai or slavers but the fact of the matter is that those techniques were put to the test every moment they were able to get away from their oppressor's watch. Okinawans feigned street brawls that were actually tactical military sessions and African slaves bound for Brazil pretended to fight for scraps to get some sparring practice. It's actually more modern schools that are using forms and dance way too often to cover the fact that they don't spar enough. The facts are pretty simple. The element of surprise will get you further than just stepping out with it but in the end the guy who trains in the open using the best possible methods is training more than the guy who has to hide what he's doing Okinawa is a province of Japan and the Brazilian slaves mostly remained slaves. Numbers and better equipment may have a fair say in those losses but losses they were.
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Post by peppermillk on Jul 8, 2012 22:21:23 GMT -5
i never knew about kata being used to camouflage fighting techniques. thats pretty cool and smart. but still u can never overtrain ur kata. perfecting it, burning it into ur muscle memory is very important. even if there r more direct ways to train the techniques kata aren't poor training. as for the sparring though yes 100% important. when i started my MA 3 years ago we never sparred. they made us build up our conditioning and technique for 6-12 months before we could start sparring. but now they implement sparring even for new students but very lightly. and they improved far faster they i originally did. so even though i am a year or so more experienced than some students we have the same sparring level as i didn't get that off the bat sparring arctic like they did. i had to wait. at the time when i was waiting thought okay good idea perhaps. it wasn't the quicker u start sparring the better
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Chef Samurai
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Canadian Catch Wrestling
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Post by Chef Samurai on Jul 8, 2012 22:36:58 GMT -5
my experience is most traditionalists say sports are limited thats it they are still good but they are as limited as the rules they train in like boxing and in a situation where you cant use your fists what do you do?
my experience with most mma people is they think tma sucks because it doesn't work in a cage so it cant work in a real fight.
however I've seen it other ways too and I personally thing everyone is right & wrong on some aspects.
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odee
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Kyokushin 10 years - Brazilian Jujitsu 3 years - Muay Thai 2 years.
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Post by odee on Jul 9, 2012 16:08:02 GMT -5
That's where I'm going to disagree with you Peppermilk. Kata is a wonderful solo exercise but you can do too much of it - if you have a partner sparring is the better exercise and you should be doing more of that. I'm of the belief that the first lesson in any martial arts should be how to deal with getting hit. Which is both a traditional and modern concept.
Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth - Mike Tyson.
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k4l
White Belt
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Post by k4l on Aug 14, 2012 0:05:46 GMT -5
I'm a traditional martial artist but I don't believe that traditional martial arts are better than modern martial arts.
I give props to modern martial arts instructors for being able to train their students to fight as soon as they begin training. It's efficient for training students as they progress faster than MOST traditional martial artists.
However (and assuming its a legit TMA school), traditional martial artists progress slower most of the time but along with that traditional martial artists pick up more life traits discipline, patience, respect, etc. That prevents them from turning into arrogant, self absorbed individuals that many modern martial artists turn into, most noticeably in teenagers.
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odee
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Post by odee on Aug 14, 2012 2:13:34 GMT -5
That's a daycare centre k4l. Discipline, patience and respect should already be tuned into you. If your martial arts instructor has to waste time teaching you these things then he is wasting his other student's training time as well. Kids these days are respecless little toads because NOBODY is allowed to touch them, I was a kid in the last years of cops with the right to kick your ass and the difference between people who grew up with that and people who didn't is enormous. The other reason you find better behaved kids in "traditional" styles is because the kids who take up those martial arts are fearful, they fear bullies, they fear concequences, they fear their teachers and they fear the pain they'll be subjected to if they take up something like MMA or Boxing. Fearful and easy to keep in line, ergo better behaved. Fighting ability is the most important goal of a martial artist and it shouldn't take more than a few months to learn, if it takes longer it's not because you're learning a traditional style it's because you're not learning at the pace it was originally taught. When they were taught for their purpose martial arts were taught in lumps of eight hours five or six days a week, your pace is slower because you're learning it two hours at a time and three or four days a week. I can accept someone who has earned a shodan in a year if they practice eight hours a day, five days a week. It takes less time for a Combat Artist to learn to fight because they get straight down to the business of learning to hit while being hit. It's also why it's hard to find a Boxer who's been practicing ten years and still can't fight.
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odee
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Post by odee on Aug 14, 2012 23:05:59 GMT -5
You joke right? Studying under a 'master' doesn't mean you're getting a better education. If the mediocre rank is a better teacher and runs a batter school then obviously he will provide the better education. Just look at all the poor fools who have stumbled into ATA, Bujinkan, Go Kan Ryu, civilian Krav Maga and other known McDojos. A lot of the head instructors of these styles and schools are known badasses and top notch martial artists themselves but since they run shitty schools they produce shitty students. In a full contact setting students become accustomed to being hit (even the wimps) and become harder to unnerve and intimidate.
I do believe that traditional is better but I also believe that very few schools that claim to be traditional truly teach at a traditional level. They teach watered down and soft versions of traditional martial arts and pussyfoot or outright lie about what early students went through. Traditional martial arts training should be for lack of a better description dangerous to learn. Because you're constantly testing and being tested with painful and potentially crippling moves you should be running a risk every time you square up to somebody, you should be intending to win almost every time you square up to somebody and you should be prepared and accepting of the possibility of wearing a beating every single time you square up to somebody. If your classmates can't or won't grace you with bruises it's time to find new classmates.
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