Chef Samurai
Global Moderator
Canadian Catch Wrestling
Posts: 843
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Post by Chef Samurai on Jul 25, 2012 17:07:37 GMT -5
yes I've heard bad about them too... but I heard tiger kids tkd is worse lol
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odee
Global Moderator
Kyokushin 10 years - Brazilian Jujitsu 3 years - Muay Thai 2 years.
Posts: 1,286
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Post by odee on Jul 26, 2012 6:59:58 GMT -5
Anything that is played to kids is going to be a bad idea. Kids martial arts classes tend to be little more than darecare centres that hold regular pillow fights.
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rikashiku
Yellow Belt
I'm watching.
Posts: 90
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Post by rikashiku on Aug 1, 2012 3:04:23 GMT -5
WTF and ITF are not the best lol, but they are the largest organizations.
There is nothing wrong with training children, only in the way that the kids are taught that it is wrong. Its always best to start young in any skill. Fighting, Self Defense, Performing arts and Business.
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augy
White Belt
Posts: 1
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Post by augy on Aug 6, 2012 21:46:52 GMT -5
i learn moo duk kwan. from a small but good school, we arnt considered ATF ATA or WTF none of that. My instructor is registered under Amateur Athletes of Arizona. It's good stuff though. lots of use of the hands we arnt so fanatic about kicks like you might expect from a tkd school but i can still name off more kicks than anything else lol very traditional and straight forward. we wear gloves a head peace and foot gear, no Hogu i like that. id recommend this style of tkd to anyone =)
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Post by Possum on Aug 8, 2012 1:15:04 GMT -5
May I try to clear up a few misconceptions?
"Kwan" is a Korean word, it means "school". So "Bob's Taekwondo" would be a kwan. Bob's kwan. Were there 70? No, there were more like hundreds. How are they different? About as different as each pizzeria along 7th ave, NYC. Different flavors, different spices, different thicknesses, different baking times, but nevertheless: dough covered with sauce, covered with cheese.
The popular kwans - the schools with the largest populations, who made the most money, who had the most influence and clout, are the ones commonly referred to as the "original 5", "original 9" or "original 12" (there are discrepancies as to how many were in the original). Suffice to say: "a bunch".
Each of the kwan founders, due to the occupation by Japan since before the founders were born, only had experience in Japanese styles of Karate, Judo, and (to a lesser extent) the combat form of Jujitsu. That's because that's all the Japanese would allow to be taught. Also it's not likely that Japanese occupiers taught the Koreans any combat style of anything.
A few of the large kwan founders studied briefly abroad, mostly in Japan and China but other places as well, and studied Kung Fu, T'ai chi, and Jujitsu.
When Japan left Korea, the only thing anyone knew was Karate, Judo, Jujitsu, and Kung Fu. A few claim to know Taek'kyon - a form of dance. They collectively called their style "Korean Karate" - to differentiate it from Japanese Karate, due to the heavy bitterness the Koreans felt toward the outgoing Japanese. Yes, the Koreans coined the phrase "Korean Karate".
In further attempts to nationalise and de-Japanify Korean Karate, Taekwondo was born, and was the precursor to WTF - then called KTA.
So WTF is the amalgamation of all of the popular kwans. That's why some WTF schools - holding true to their past - perform their techniques a little different from each other.
It is true that WTF is not a style. Technically, what people refer to as WTF style, they really mean "Kukkiwon" style. That's because Kukkiwon manages dan and instructor certification as well as determines what elements are part of the style.
It's also true that not all schools of the kwans that amalgamated into WTF signed up with WTF. Today, those kwans are called fraternal organizations, but the non-following schools nevertheless have nothing to do with WTF. They issue dan certification to their members, and may even compete in WTF events. But they do NOT subscribe to Kukkiwon influences on style.
***
ITF is a wholly developed style, invented by Gen Choi. Unlike WTF, which is an amalgamation of different kwans (remember: different flavors of Korean Karate), ITF is now fractured into 3 competing headquarters (N Korea, Austria, and Canada), and are made up of individual schools, not sovereign organizations.
WTF, therefore, is a true federation: a conglomeration of sovereign entities. ITF is not a true federation, but rather a simple association. Schools join ITF, but schools cannot join WTF. In WTF, schools must join a sovereign region, like USA-Taekwondo. And regions must be part of another sovereign entity - in our case, it's PATU, or Pan American Taekwondo Union. These regions - there are 7 if I recall - all join directly with WTF.
Lastly, ATA was originally a sect of ITF, having originally practiced the Chang Hon style of forms. They also underwent a change, and now practice the Songahm style of forms.
The easiest way to count the number of Taekwondo styles is to count the distinct classification of forms. That would be:
Chang Hon Pyong Ahn Kicho Taeguek/Palgwe Songahm
That's 5 distinct styles.
As to Chang Hon, there are two very different ways to perform their forms and self-defense techniques: with the sine wave and a more aggressive sparring curriculum; and without the sine wave and with a fighting system that tends to be lighter. So you might argue 6 distinct styles.
As to Palgwe/Taeguek, this is odd. Kukkiwon discontinued use of Palgwe and opted for a completely invented new set of forms (the Taeguek series). Did the style change? No, not in my opinion. I, therefore, don't count one school who uses Taeguek and another using Palgwe as two schools of two styles. Everything else - self-defense, sport, defense philosophy, techniques - they all remain the same.
Were the original (hundreds of) kwans different styles? Probably not. They generally practiced the same techniques, occasionally borrowing from other styles like Chinese or Japanese styles, or even from Taek'kyon. But generally they were similar enough to be categorized into the above 6 styles.
It is interesting to note that, despite Korea's warmer relationship with China, and despite it being a geographically closer neighbor, that Japanese culture had greater influence on Korean styles than did Chinese. It's not a coincidence that Korean styles have white uniforms, with black belts, and colored underbelts, and many of the traditions and mannerisms are similarly associated. I think this is a testament to the greater influence of Japanese Karate that the Koreans care to admit.
I was chastised by my instructor when, for my 1st dan essay, I mentioned that Taekwondo was only 50-odd years old. I was supposed to say that it was thousands of years old. But it has no mention of it in the Muye Dobo Tongji, written in the 1800's I think, and that means it simply didn't exist. The techniques might have. But the system as we know it today is very new.
Many of the orginal founders are still alive (another proof that, unless they are related to Methusela, Taekwondo can't be thousands of years old!) Most have written memoirs or autobiographies, and can pretty much sum up what I've said.
An analogy of language: slight differences = accent. heavy differences (same root) = dialect. Gross differences (or different roots) = new language.
Similarly to styles: we don't have accents, dialects, or new language analogy. And, style is a double-entendre: it can mean a completely new style (ie, Kung Fu vs Karate), or it can simply mean difference in the way the same things are done. How much of a change between two schools doing things before they are considered different styles? That is undefined, and is left to personal opinion.
That is why I believe there are only 6 styles of Taekwondo. Not 70.
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Chef Samurai
Global Moderator
Canadian Catch Wrestling
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Post by Chef Samurai on Aug 8, 2012 12:19:58 GMT -5
thanks a lot possum you cleared up a lot for me!!
but I don't agree 100% that korean martial arts like taekyeon were dead I think it was more like what the americans did to the japanese with their invasion when they banned jujutsu and everything but sumo because it was a sport and not a real threat, things went underground and survived.
korean kwan relates to japanese ryu more than I thought then since it's the same thing like gichin funokoshi created his style 10 years before he opened the shotokan shcool he called it japanese karate but when he opened the shotakan dojo everyone erroneously called his style shotokan after the school instead of japanese karate just what sounds like people confuse kwans with.
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Post by Possum on Aug 9, 2012 21:49:48 GMT -5
Yes chefsamurai, you are right about taekkoyn being dead: I am told that the Japanese considered it a "dance" and allowed its practice. However, Japanese occupation decimated nearly all aspects of Korean culture; it doesn't make sense that they allowed Taek'kyon to be practiced while forbidding everything else. So I don't fully buy the dance thing yet; but you may be right that original TKY may have been watered down in order to stay off Japanese radar. That would make more sense. Anyhow, I've seen TKY, and it's hypnotic to watch. I wish I had access to a school.
By the way, although I don't agree on 70-odd styles, others believe it is around 70 (and others even way more). I tend not to argue the point: like language, it's often hard enough to argue whether American English and British English are dialects or accents. So it is with the kwans: were they distinct styles or slight variations (or combinations?).
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odee
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Kyokushin 10 years - Brazilian Jujitsu 3 years - Muay Thai 2 years.
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Post by odee on Aug 10, 2012 0:44:52 GMT -5
I'm curious now. You say Taek'kyon was mostly a dance do you mean in a similar way to Capoeira or more like a tribal war dance? I always assumed Taekwando's story was similar to Karate. Local fighting style combined with stuff learned from the invading Japanese and Chinese trade. But you made it sound like it was mostly Karate and Judo flavoured with Taek'kyon style.
Here's an interesting piece of history I dug up a while ago, I can't remember where exactly. Ssireum the traditional Korean wrestling style is thought to have evolved alongside Japanese Jujutsu and Sumo from a Mongolian wrestling style after the Mongolian Empire swept across most of Asia.
Ssireum even looks a bit like Sumo.
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Post by Possum on Aug 10, 2012 8:07:13 GMT -5
Odee I don't know about TKY, I'd only be guessing. My guess is that it was more like Capoeira, and not a war dance. I've aways viewed war dances as a means for drumming up noise to either cause fear in the enemy, or to call on the war gods in hope that they are favored in battle. Nothing in TKY strikes me as either case.
TKD, in my opinion, is just that: Shotokan shoved down their throats. Over a small period of time, things like roundhouse kicks, spin kicks, flip kicks, and other flashy stuff was added, and they credited Taekkyon for it. But if you look at even their modern forms, you see none of that. Not the movement, not the techniques... not nothing. The same is true for Sserium, there is nothing inside TKD to suggest any influence from Sserium. You could use the Japanese concept of hidden techniques, but why hide techniques when other styles like jujitsu overtly practice and engage in it? I doubt the Koreans applied this concept, they were more interested in making it less Japanese. It might have been an after-thought, but not when they were inventing the system.
All of the fancy footwork you see today is born out of nothing more than the grunge crowd (teens) trying to outdo each other - just like what Capoeiristas, skateboarders, snowboarders, and bikers do.
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odee
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Kyokushin 10 years - Brazilian Jujitsu 3 years - Muay Thai 2 years.
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Post by odee on Aug 10, 2012 9:10:55 GMT -5
There wasn't an error Chef, the students Christened the school "School of Shoto" in spite of their teacher's protests and it caught before he could give it a proper name.
Possum. How did your teacher react to finding out how well you'd researched Taekwando's history? Not happy about having the dogma knocked over or delighted to learn something new?
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Post by Possum on Aug 10, 2012 16:49:33 GMT -5
Odee, On my essay, his original reaction was... negative. He told me how unhappy and disappointed in me he was. In fact, it was such an apparent faux pas, the two other senior instructors struggled to keep me, as the instructor wanted to throw me out of the dojang permanently. Apparently, he was highly offended, to put it mildly. On one hand, aside from TKD, he is also a history buff. On the other hand, he never did quote a text or book stating otherwise.
I am (we all are) left with conjecture, since the Japanese destroyed everything. There was a book, or tome of sorts, called the Muye Dobo Tongji which was at the time an encyclopedia of fighting styles. The book itself is controversial, but it is noteworthy that it contains nothing about Taekwondo. Even the founders "made up" the name taekwondo, a derivative from the name "taekyyon".
I changed my essay to reflect his preference. At the time, I didn't give it a thought. I was a few years later I learned how really angry he was at me. It was also years later that I learned about the Muye Dobo Tongji. If I ever met him again, it's not something I would bring up, and it is a subject I would worm out of if cornered. But I believe in my heart that he was wrong, and quite possibly he had some unresolved issues in his family (who didn't, really?).
I have never argued with an instructor I respected, nor have I ever questioned anyone's teachings. Except this one time, and even then I didn't confront him on the subject. So I don't think he knows how much research I poured into it. On the upside, it DID cause me to research it more than most people would have, despite that I HATE history.
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odee
Global Moderator
Kyokushin 10 years - Brazilian Jujitsu 3 years - Muay Thai 2 years.
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Post by odee on Aug 10, 2012 18:02:28 GMT -5
I enjoy history. They say history is written by the victors but that's not entirely true. History is written by Bullshit Artists and that's what makes it fun. You find facts only to find out further down the track that those facts are fiction written by the victors or just cases of bullshit getting the upper hand. Martial Arts particularly suffer in this because they're personal for one thing and the 'Masters' get pumped up by their students for another. About a year back I had a person trying to tell me that Mas Oyama defeated three hundred and fifty guys from different styles in one day, where he got that I have no idea but my guess is this; Two stories have been merged together and buffed for impressiveness. Mas Oyama did a three hundred man kumite over three days, one hundred students a day, he wanted to go for a fourth day but he was so merciless to end matches quickly and efficiently that he didn't have a hundred students in fighting shape for the fourth day. Combined with Oyama's USA tour in which he supposedly fought two hundred challenge matches against local heroes across America over the course of a year. Combine the two, add some bullshit for effect and unless that gets knocked on the head early it might be believed twenty or so years down the track.
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Post by cheetah on Aug 30, 2012 15:22:02 GMT -5
The kwans were the different styles of Korean martial arts. Coming out of WWII, there were many different kwans or styles. In 1955, Gen. Choi Hong Hi combined many of these kwans to develop the ITF style of TKD.
Different kwans modern day are Chung Do Kwan and Moo Duk Kwan, even Tang Soo Do can be considered a modern day kwan. Even though Kokoro is correct, ITF and WTF are organizations, not styles, I would argue that they teach the same things in different ways. A roundhouse kick in ITF is built for power, less snap, more rotation. A roundhouse kick in WTF is all about speed and quick scoring. So I personally consider them different styles of TKD.
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Post by cheetah on Aug 30, 2012 15:24:18 GMT -5
Sorry possum, didn't see there were 2 pages to this post. Good answer.
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Post by jwbulldogs on Sept 5, 2012 19:06:46 GMT -5
Possum some thing are worth arguing about and others aren't. It was good for you that you did the research and discovered much. If he rejected it, it is his lost, not yours.
I wouldn't bring it up if I met him again either. i would try to avoid it, but if he insisted I would state what I know, not what he wants me to say.
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