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Post by friendlyvirus on Jul 19, 2012 15:51:41 GMT -5
well, in the spanish version of YA! there is this guy that is quite annoying, that keeps telling people things like: "a traditional karate practiotioner would lose against a boxer on a ring, but on the street he would kill him" so i want to know how wrong or right is this guy, that the combat sports would lose on a real situation.
by the way, this guy practices shorin ryu, and he claims that it and goju ryu are the best karate styles.
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odee
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Post by odee on Jul 19, 2012 18:47:50 GMT -5
In a Boxing ring he is most likely right, that's the Boxer's turf and not many fighters can claim the skills with fists that can be picked up Boxing. However, a Karate student with the ability to at least last a round or two with a Boxer in a Boxing ring would most likely defeat him in a Kickboxing ring, in an MMA cage or on the street, the Boxer's specialising begins to play against him when his opponent begins trashing his legs and landing blows from outside punching range, the Boxer just hasn't been trained to deal with that.
Saying that any Karate is the best is where your mate is completely wrong. Goju-ryu and Shorin-ryu are amoung the oldest but not neccessarily the best, after all there are other styles that have healthy reputations as combat sports, military systems AND self defense systems like Shotokan, Seidokaikan, Kyokushin and Kensinkan. On a technical level Kyokushin has supposedly taken the best of Shotokan and Goju-ryu and combined them, that doesn't make Kyokushin better than both styles it just makes it a combination of those two styles. There are also better schools and worse schools within every style of Karate.
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Post by friendlyvirus on Jul 19, 2012 19:10:00 GMT -5
well actually he means not only a boxer, but a muay thai fighter, kick boxer, MMA fighter etc.
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odee
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Post by odee on Jul 20, 2012 0:45:59 GMT -5
That's just stupid. Most Kickboxing Champions have been Karate practitioners, a number of Muay Thai champions are Karateka and vise-versa and there have been several MMA champions who use Karate. Karate does fine in a ring if the person using it is capable - same with all the other styles. There are good boxers and shit boxers, good Muay Thai students and shit Muay Thai students and good MMA practitioners and shit MMA practitioners.
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Post by friendlyvirus on Jul 20, 2012 15:46:15 GMT -5
well, i didnt explain myself right, i mean he doesnt say it for the people but the style, like for example he says that in a street fight one dude with traditional karate, would kill a guy with lets say, muay thai and bjj, but in the ring he cant because his art is too deadly.
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odee
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Post by odee on Jul 20, 2012 18:38:31 GMT -5
Pfft, that's a 'teh DeAdly' argument. Muay Thai is very similar to Karate, just because some techniques aren't legal in the ring very rarely means they aren't taught in the schools. Punches to the head aren't allowed in Knockdown Karate but students still learn them because it's a basic fighting technique, the Muay Thai practitioner has just as many ways of murdering someone as a Karateka does when the gloves come off. If the Karateka can't stand up to the Muay Thai practitioner in the ring or cage he isn't going to beat him on the street. Same goes with Brazilian Jujitsu. If the Jujitsu student managed to pull the Karateka down and choke him out or tap him out in the MMA cage or ring there is every chance that same Jujitsu student would pull that Karateka down and choke him unconcious or to death or break his joints on the street. Having an eye gouged isn't going to stop someone who is intent on wringing your neck or breaking your arm, neither will fish-hooks, throat grabs or nut shots. I'm a Kyokushin Karate student who currently practices Muay Thai and Brazilian Jujitsu, I still favour Kyokushin so I'm not some fanboy. I'd even go so far as to say style is nearly irrelevant, it's a matter of ability - if someone has the ability to easily put you down when there are rules they're going to put you down just as easily when there are none. It's only if you're on a similar ability level to them and only just lost by something like a split desicion that rules or lack of rules might make a difference and that's still only a possibility. A lack of rules might even work in a combat sport athlete's favour because they've been unbound by the restrictions of the ring or cage. 'Too deadly for the ring' only applies to people like Glutton4Punishment who carry guns and knives.
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Post by kokoro on Jul 20, 2012 20:51:21 GMT -5
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odee
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Post by odee on Jul 20, 2012 23:28:32 GMT -5
Kokoro you know I don't count techniques hidden in kata unless the person in question has trained their ability to use them and most Karate students haven't done that. The few who have are the ones who have been doing it for twenty years and are well past their prime or have done their homework specially because they wish to use it in competitions like MMA or Vale Tudo - other than that they use much the same throws, sweeps and joint locks that are taught in Muay Thai classes. Most Karate students have grappling ability equal to a Muay Thai student of the same training time. Nice vids. They illustrate just what I was trying to point out, especially the Kung Fu one and the bloody mess. The style you use will only benefit if your training and ability are up to snuff. The Wing Chun guy didn't use a single technique that isn't completely legal in MMA, he won because he completely outclassed the MMA student in ability, street or MMA ring that Mixed Martial Artist would be history if he picked a fight with that particular Wing Chun student. Same with the Jujitsu student who became the bloody mess, he had that Karateka in a good position and lacked the ability to put his opponent away, the positon slipped away from him and he got beaten bloody. This is another good example - Gerard Gordeau vs Yuki Nakai www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sOgRBMTL50The fight starts to get good at 6:30 Gordeau was a high profile Kickboxer, Karateka, Vale Tudo fighter, Savateur and came second in UFC 1 so he's no slouch at fighting, he soccer kicked the s#!t out of Yuki's head, dropped punches on his Yuki's head that bounced it off the mat, stood on Yuki's head, squeezed Yuki's toes, bent Yuki's toes and supposedly eye gouged Yuki and still lost because Yuki wasn't going to let something like pain stop him from getting results, you just can't expect a fighter to let go. That's why I say if you can't beat someone in a ring the chances are pretty high that you'll lose on the streets too.
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Post by kokoro on Jul 20, 2012 23:39:09 GMT -5
the unfortunate part about kata bunkai is the jka, tried to remove all grappling, and i feel as a result did some much damage to the way its taught now a days, and as a result most dojo's train only striking. it just kills me. it makes it very difficult to find people that really understand how karate is suppose to be. this particular video or rather any video from this persons school always has great bunkai, utilizing the grappling. www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzYTDQNHVXk
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odee
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Post by odee on Jul 21, 2012 0:02:40 GMT -5
I blame catering for crappy students in the quest for money. A lot of schools stick to the easy stuff because some of their paying customers are a bit slow so rather than ditching the dead weight the better students keep doing the rookie shit. It happens in all styles.
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Post by Mr Wonderful on Jul 21, 2012 0:07:22 GMT -5
This is another good example - Gerard Gordeau vs Yuki Nakai www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sOgRBMTL50The fight starts to get good at 6:30 Gordeau was a high profile Kickboxer, Karateka, Vale Tudo fighter, Savateur and came second in UFC 1 so he's no slouch at fighting, he soccer kicked the s#!t out of Yuki's head, dropped punches on his Yuki's head that bounced it off the mat, stood on Yuki's head, squeezed Yuki's toes, bent Yuki's toes and supposedly eye gouged Yuki and still lost because Yuki wasn't going to let something like pain stop him from getting results, you just can't expect a fighter to let go. That's why I say if you can't beat someone in a ring the chances are pretty high that you'll lose on the streets too. Yuki is damn tough, he fought Rickson Gracie later that night and ended up going blind in his right eye due to the eye gouge.
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odee
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Post by odee on Jul 21, 2012 0:20:11 GMT -5
Yeah, like the soccer kicks, stomping and punching had nothing to do with it. Gordeau messed up the whole right side of Yuki's face so badly that the right side of Yuki's mouth is slack as well. The gouging wouldn't have helped matters but there's a fair chance Gordeau would have messed up Yuki's vision without them.
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Post by Glutton4Punishment on Jul 21, 2012 1:14:11 GMT -5
Pfft, that's a 'teh DeAdly' argument. Muay Thai is very similar to Karate, just because some techniques aren't legal in the ring very rarely means they aren't taught in the schools. Punches to the head aren't allowed in Knockdown Karate but students still learn them because it's a basic fighting technique, the Muay Thai practitioner has just as many ways of murdering someone as a Karateka does when the gloves come off. If the Karateka can't stand up to the Muay Thai practitioner in the ring or cage he isn't going to beat him on the street. Same goes with Brazilian Jujitsu. If the Jujitsu student managed to pull the Karateka down and choke him out or tap him out in the MMA cage or ring there is every chance that same Jujitsu student would pull that Karateka down and choke him unconcious or to death or break his joints on the street. Having an eye gouged isn't going to stop someone who is intent on wringing your neck or breaking your arm, neither will fish-hooks, throat grabs or nut shots. I'm a Kyokushin Karate student who currently practices Muay Thai and Brazilian Jujitsu, I still favour Kyokushin so I'm not some fanboy. I'd even go so far as to say style is nearly irrelevant, it's a matter of ability - if someone has the ability to easily put you down when there are rules they're going to put you down just as easily when there are none. It's only if you're on a similar ability level to them and only just lost by something like a split desicion that rules or lack of rules might make a difference and that's still only a possibility. A lack of rules might even work in a combat sport athlete's favour because they've been unbound by the restrictions of the ring or cage. 'Too deadly for the ring' only applies to people like Glutton4Punishment who carry guns and knives. I don't like to call myself deadly, but I do want to point out that Muay Thai does contain things like eye gauges, groin strikes, and so on. Here's an example of a traditional eye rake/leg kick: www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNUQO1nJsCU&feature=plcpThe hands when un-gloved are kept open so that the fingers can slide against the eyes. It's sort of a two-in-one attack. This is the sort of thing you get when you train with a Thai Kru like hers or my own. Back to the subject of "deadly." I don't like to think of a firearm as a deadly tool either, even though it very well can be. The reason for this is that death, in my personal opinion (and conviction), should NEVER be a goal in a fight. The idea of killing somebody should never be foremost in one's mind. Your goal in a fight, whether it be hand to hand or with a firearm (which is only a tool, not a killing weapon unless its user wants it to be) should be to STOP THE THREAT. If your opponent expires, it is an unfortunate result of stopping the threat. It is NEVER the goal. The reason we aim for center mass is because disrupting the central nervous system is the most effective way of stopping a threat, not because it's where the vital organs are or any BS like that. I know that I went a bit off track here, but my personal convictions led me to make sure this point got across. Being a martial artist can mean many things to many people, but it NEVER means being able to kill somebody. You don't need to be a martial artist to take a life, anyway.
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Post by Mr Wonderful on Jul 21, 2012 2:03:39 GMT -5
Yeah, like the soccer kicks, stomping and punching had nothing to do with it. Gordeau messed up the whole right side of Yuki's face so badly that the right side of Yuki's mouth is slack as well. The gouging wouldn't have helped matters but there's a fair chance Gordeau would have messed up Yuki's vision without them. True, but the eye gouge was what infected the eye though. Aparently if his eye was treated earlier then his vision could have been saved.
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odee
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Post by odee on Jul 21, 2012 20:46:52 GMT -5
Darcevader. It's also possible to get infections from toenails. I'd hate to think of the kind of germs that make my feet stink when my shoes come off.
Glutton that Kru is either a shit-stirrer with an awesome sense of humour or he is enjoying the show waaaay too much.
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