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Post by rollingrock128 on Sept 12, 2012 23:07:40 GMT -5
where is the line drawn between modern martial arts and traditional? because in my opinion no martial art is modern per say. except combing multiple arts that have been around for maany years into one fighting plan. just wonder what your opinion on it is
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Post by jwbulldogs on Sept 13, 2012 2:46:09 GMT -5
This is just my opinion. The term used as modern martial arts is being applied instead of using martial sports. It applies to the use of martial arts that has a strong emphasis on competition instead of tradition and self defense. Often they attempt to equate what takes place in sparring or in competition with it also being used in self defense.
Many fail to acknowledge that there is nothing new. The techniques that are being used in their sport are the same ones used in self defense. The objectives are different.
In sport the objective is to win a competition within the guidelines of the rules of the sport even though some bend, break or disregard some of the rules. Some use loopholes in the rule set to their advantage as part of their strategy. But in self defense the objective is clearly different. It is not sporting. We are not shaking hands afterwards. In self defense the objective is to survive by any mean. This means you will injure or use deadly force in order to survive. There is only one rule; survive. There is not snap or tap. There is only snap. Your life may depend on it. There are no refs to stop it. The only stoppage is your ethics or the police. In self defense it is not about being macho or you ego. If you have no choice but to fight 3 guys, maybe you break the 1st guys leg. You push the 2nd guy into the 3rd and they stumble. This give you time to escape safely. You don't have to prove how tough you are or how much you know. You have accomplished you goal and that is to survive. Only fight when you have no other choice.
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Chef Samurai
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Post by Chef Samurai on Sept 13, 2012 12:22:43 GMT -5
historicallyt people have always mixed different things from different styles it's nothing new at all and I don't see traditional & modern as 2 separate things because many modern arts are traditional and some older arts are considered modern.
traditional arts are ones who follow tradition that's it nothing more
modern arts are ones developed in modern times nothing more
if the style was made in the late 1800s like bartitsu and is considered modern and one made in the 1950s like taekwondo is considered traditional how could they possible be referring to the same thing???
if you make an art today and it encompass tradition it's traditional even if it's modern.
I like to call them modern martial arts & older martial arts to differentiate their age and traditional martial arts & nontraditional martial arts to differentiate if they are traditional or not.
karate, taekwondo & kung fu are all considered traditional styles but they all have modern things added like in karate the axe kicks & roundhouse kicks aren't originally in it but they are now so is modern karate not traditional or is it?
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Post by jwbulldogs on Sept 13, 2012 22:21:07 GMT -5
What are developed during modern time?
They all have their origins in something that is traditional. There is nothing new. The differences are that they change the rules in the sporting aspect or they added a sporting aspect. But the techniques all come from TMA.
There is this one guy that Pugspaw vouches far after meeting him in person. He claims his art has not Eastern influences. It was created from the streets. I don't remember the name of it. I think Sev posted it. He gave it some kind of name that makes me think he was giving it an Easter culture name. But it is supposed to be a Cajun street fighting art. It has kata. They compete in tournaments. I think they use a few weapons, but I'm not sure unlless I look it up. It is supposed to be like a combination of savate bjj, judo, karate or kung fu.
This guy may know his self defense. I won't dispute that not having met him or seen what he can do. But I do not believe he created this off the top of his head. He has been recognized as a 10th Dan by a major karate association. Kata is not a Cajun thing. It is from the east. He had some training somewhere and maybe added his own twist. His style is supposed to be about striking the attackers bones. Every strike is meant to break a bone. You might hit a person at least 3 times. Meaning the bone should be broken in 3 places. Again I don't believe that is possible. Striking a bone will hurt, but you aren't breaking bones with each strike.
If I find the post I may post it or paste part of it.
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Chef Samurai
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Post by Chef Samurai on Sept 15, 2012 23:37:06 GMT -5
maybe he aims all his strikes at weak bones like the floating ribs & clavicle?
and forms were practiced by the greeks & romans too and from what I know the french revered the greeks & romas so much they even named a wrestling style created in the 1840s greco-roman wrestling after them since they wrestled too and they wanted to be associated with them and maybe he did the same thing?
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Post by jwbulldogs on Sept 17, 2012 1:20:21 GMT -5
I think the way he described it is that if you punch at them they will hit you at least 3 times. Each strike is designed to break bones. How did he come up with a strike will break a bone? Let alone 2 bones? There is no case study. This wasn't used during any wars or battles. It wasn't developed over centuries.
It is fabricated. Sure he may teach them the strike bones. That will hurt. It can injure. But you are not break bones in my arm by punching when I strike you, nor my legs when I kick. Bones aren't that fragile. I could accept if he was attacking joints.
One part of his website said he started creating this style when he was 9 years old while getting attacked by 3 guys and he won.
I believe he knows some self defense. But he didn't created anything. He might have changed the philosophy to attacking bones. But contrary to what he said his art was influenced from eastern arts.
His students compete in karate tournaments. They have kata too. You don't strike bones in karate tournament. You only do that in self defense.
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odee
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Post by odee on Sept 20, 2012 19:16:07 GMT -5
That's Bullshit Bulldogs. I've broken people's ribs in competition for both points and the effects of broken ribs. If you can break a person to put them down sooner you do it, it's not mean or cruel, it's just a risk you take when you step into a fighting contest and not all contestants get to go home at the end of the day, I've spent a week in hospital after a tournament where I suffered cracked ribs myself, I've spent a couple of overnighters with concussion as well. Modern and traditional are just names, titles with no real meaning, the only real difference is that one title is often used to cover training flaws with rhetoric and bullshido while the other is using stuff that is clearly not as modern as they claim.
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Post by jwbulldogs on Sept 20, 2012 23:32:35 GMT -5
No it is not. Notice I didn't mention the ribs. The rib bone is a a fairly easy bone to break. We usually don't intentionally break a rib in competition at least they way we were taught unless they are going to rob you anyway. But you are not punching a guys arms and expecting to break them in 3 places with 3 strikes. That is all I said and the same thing for the leg. In self defense the ribs especially the lower rib is a target because it is easy to break and it will take the attackers wind. My point was this guy may know his stuff. Black Belt magazine and some Karate Organization honored him saying that he created his style. They awarded him a 6 Dan. Now he's a 10 Dan. I won't dispute any of those things. My dispute is that his style is completely original. It has not influence for the Far East. My dispute is that he began creating it at the age of 9 and that every strike in his style is going to break a bone.
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odee
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Post by odee on Sept 21, 2012 8:50:04 GMT -5
Just like the sword. It's all good to say it's designed to cut ten people but actually doing it is something else entirely. I highly doubt that anyone could break an arm in three places with three strikes unless the poor schmuck they're hitting has osteopenia aka weak bones, if that's the case the guy is either suicidal or just plain stupid. But just like punching a hole in taut paper being able to break a cripple is nothing to write home about. I still maintain that ring-craft experience trumps technique every single day of the week.
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Post by jwbulldogs on Sept 22, 2012 3:59:29 GMT -5
A sword is not designed to kill 10 people at once. It sounds good to say that. But in is no more designed to kill 10 people than a kata is designed to fight 7 people. The sword is designed to kill. Yes you can kill 10 people. But it would be unrealistic to expect to cut and or kill 10 people with one cut. Sword strikes for the most part are precise. you don't overextend the weapon too much. There are very few strikes that you over extend the weapon. That is done on a high cut. Other than that the sword you use it to cut vital areas like belly splitting. I can't think of the Japanese term right now. I'd have to look it up since I haven't used it in a while.
But that guy in my opinion said those things which adds to the mysticism that people associate with martial arts. That bothered me. If he had said the strikes were used to attack the joints that would be fine to me. Saying he is attacking bones is great too. But saying every strike will break a bone I must draw the line. Even if that was possible they couldn't spar nor could they compete. But they do compete in karate tournaments. Saying the it is completely made up is a lie. If not why do they have kata. That is not a Cajun term. Nor did he start creating this Cajun martial arts with no Eastern martial influence when he was 9 years old fighting against 3 guys that he beat up.
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odee
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Post by odee on Sept 22, 2012 19:21:16 GMT -5
Sorry, I mis-read that post. I've never broken an arm or a thigh bone, I'm not that strong, but I do know it is possible to get them. I saw it happen once in a Muay Thai match. One fighter kicked for his opponent's head and his opponent kicked his thigh. I thought he must have dislocated the poor guy's hip joint but it actually got announced later in the night that it was his femur. I also saw an arm go in a Kyokushin match, poor guy blocked what would have been a rib breaking kick and shattered one of the two bones in his forearm. Major ouch. I've broken baseball bats and bundles of bo and cane but generating that kind of power in an actual fight is just amazing. Someone saying they can do a bone in three places or three bones with three strikes is a freak, a crazy or a liar, it's hard enough to do one bone with several strikes.
Modern has more to do with training methods rather than technique, modern sport science and physical training far outstrip traditional methods for conditioning, flexibility and strength. However. You're right that no techniques are new, the human anatomy hasn't changed in several hundred years and neither have the methods of destroying it with your own body. The rift lies in the idiots of both schools and the fan-bases of each trying to compare with little or no knowledge. There are traditionalists who claim that competition takes away from the art while they themselves are hopeless fighters and unable to defend themselves because they don't have any experience and Hong Kong cinema fans who believe they can learn to defend themselves without picking up a bruise. On the other side of the fence there are modernists who have no idea where their techniques came from and believe that traditional schools don't spar or compete. Then there are the idiots who believe "If it doesn't work in The Octagon it doesn't work" without factoring in things like personal skill differences. There's also the fact that both have produced moronic teachers who bash on anything that could possibly take students away from them and lower their profit margin, the sad fact is that some of these teachers are actually quite good martial artists themselves
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Post by jwbulldogs on Sept 22, 2012 22:29:16 GMT -5
I don't want to say to much about that guy. I might be good at self defense. I don't know. He has taught some that have had a good amount of success in competition. I just don't believe all of his story.
You left out one thing there are those that are good in competition, but they are good at self defense. I've seen this way too often.
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odee
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Post by odee on Sept 23, 2012 1:29:22 GMT -5
I've only ever encountered them from minimal contact competitions. I've never met someone who was successful at MMA, Kickboxing, Boxing or any full contact striking competition who was unable to fight back. I don't care what people practice or what name it bears, what bothers me is when people hold high grades or high recognition and get hit for the first time in a fight. That's wrong on so many levels it's sad. A martial artist should have withstood their first hit before they earned their first noob grade. I despise teachers who don't make teaching their students to tolerate pain among their first orders of business. Pain 101 is basic.
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Post by jwbulldogs on Sept 23, 2012 22:27:07 GMT -5
I can't speak for your experiences, but I have seen boxers, mma, karateka, wrestlers, tkd, etc that can't fight out of a paper bag. They believe what they have been taught has prepared them for the streets because they have won some competitions, but they can't fight in a real fight. They can't handle themselves in my dojo. I haven't seen this with muay thai so far. But I don't see many that know muay thai other than the ones that think they know it because they have trained in a mma gym and have won some amateur title.
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odee
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Post by odee on Sept 24, 2012 8:47:54 GMT -5
If someone has won an amature title in Muay Thai or MMA or Boxing or Kickboxing and can't defend himself there is really something wrong with the competition or he's bullshitting you really well.
Wrestling I can understand, most wrestling schools these days are throws only, it's entirely possible to be a successful wrestler without ever getting punched in the face and that first time is always a real rattler. Taekwando and Karate I can see happening too, it's all too common to encounter Taekwando and Karate black-belts and multiple national champions of some competition or other who have never been gifted with a bruise.
But if you're fighting and winning in a competition that can be won by making the other guy unable to continue I'd expect a higher ability to defend yourself.
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