Chef Samurai
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Canadian Catch Wrestling
Posts: 843
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Post by Chef Samurai on Sept 25, 2012 16:46:34 GMT -5
odee- really that's funy because every kickboxer & nak muay I've ever met were easily beaten by a duoble leg or suplex in the clinch followed up by a quick submission... so I don't see how they could easily defend themselves in a self-defence situation against even a mediocre grappler. The hardest part of fighting them was standing up with them but as soon as we were on the ground they were like babies rolling around like morons right into submissions I learned as a white belt in judo.
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odee
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Kyokushin 10 years - Brazilian Jujitsu 3 years - Muay Thai 2 years.
Posts: 1,286
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Post by odee on Sept 25, 2012 18:55:34 GMT -5
That's the same thing back the other way Chef, if you have no exposure to grappling you will fall into every trap groundwork can offer but I've seen and even made far better grapplers and wrestlers than me freeze by giving them their first kick in the face. What you have no exposure to is always going to be a problem.
The modern way is the same modern way it was 20 years ago when they held the first UFC. The same modern way it was 50 years ago when Bruce Lee was flogging the 'Take what works from each style and ditch what doesn't" method. The same modern way it was 80 years ago when Kano shared a training hall and technique with Funakoshi. The same modern way it was 300 years ago when Karate was still completely Okinawan and 500 years ago when the most recent Chinese styles were being created. Get a base then get exposure to anything in any way you possibly can. It used to be war, duels, school challenges and competition, war has changed to the point where hand to hand is nearly irrelevant, duels are illegal and school challenges have become harder to make because image means money and getting stomped by someone subtracts from your image and intake so money-first schools won't accept them. That leaves competition as the fastest way of getting exposure, people in competitions are going to resist and attack you and use every method available to them to win so the best method of getting exposure and experience is competing in any and every competition you can enter.
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Post by jwbulldogs on Sept 26, 2012 22:25:43 GMT -5
I know guys that compete and don't have much a clue of what to do or how to defend themselves. They may take the same approach as they do in competition. While that can be and should be beneficial, but it doesn't help them much. I don't know a lot of muay thai guys unless they or mma guys with muay thai training. By the same token there are karatka that are the same BUt those karateka aren't learn karate. They are learning a sports karate. They miss out n so much that should be taught. They think because they can do a kata they can fight multiple attackers, but have never trained for it. Tactics are quite different fighting a guy with a knife, stick or friends than what is done in competitions with the rules saying don't strike here, etc.
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odee
Global Moderator
Kyokushin 10 years - Brazilian Jujitsu 3 years - Muay Thai 2 years.
Posts: 1,286
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Post by odee on Sept 27, 2012 0:01:55 GMT -5
Kata doesn't count for crap unless you have some kind of fighting experience to make use of it otherwise people would be able to learn martial arts alone with videos. Competition is the best way of getting the resistance that changes it from theory to practicality, I've seen the bouncers outnumbered which is when I get to join in but I've never seen them out of their depth and most of them are athletes who don't even consider themselves martial artists, two are Boxers and three play Rugby. The Boxers do fine because they have the same goal that they have in competition, knock the bastard out and he ceases to be a threat. Doesn't always work out in the Boxing ring because they're almost always facing someone of similar intent, experience and ability but it works well on the vast majority of the population. The Rugby players also work a similar method, tackle people hard enough that they don't get up then join the line and hit the next guy with the same intent. Doesn't always work out so well for them on the football field because they're tackling people of similar toughness and experience but it works incredibly well against most of the people they've hit in the club.
Don't strike here rules are a bullshit excuse and one that would suggest that sportsmanship is common. I love being a good sport but I also know that to be a good sport you have to outmatch the other guy on every level and I like winning just as much as I like winning fair so I play the rules. Such a mindset is not rare or even uncommon, most of the population are not simple, trusting fools, humans are creative and sneaky, it's why we survived, we're opportunists like rats or foxes. Rules don't change that, humans bend laws all the time.
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Post by jwbulldogs on Sept 27, 2012 2:23:48 GMT -5
Whether you want to admit it or not rules are relevant. If you participate in any sport you train for the rules of that sport. You change the rules you change the game. It is no different than the wrestlers, boxers, or mma guys that used to come in our dojo some of them were pro boxers. They think they can handle themselves and that our tma can't be used. We make it clear that will do fight according to their rules. They don't think it matters until they see something they have don't prepare for and find themselves in pain. We have been nice and not put their eyes out are smash their esophagus. Even though they agree to no rules they if they don't want to quit and try again they want to add some rules saying you can't do that. Of those guys boxer are generally the worst. MMA guys fair better as they last a little longer but they assume that all we do is point karate. They are sadly mistaken. We don't care for that game of tag. Also kata has so much in it that mos school never touch and thy should. Those are the things that need to be drilled. It is much more than feeling pain and getting bruised. Bruises do happen in the dojo. It's part of what we do. It's not ping pong or checkers.
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odee
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Kyokushin 10 years - Brazilian Jujitsu 3 years - Muay Thai 2 years.
Posts: 1,286
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Post by odee on Sept 28, 2012 3:37:20 GMT -5
I train under the belief that people will cheat and anybody who has competed for any amount of time keeps that in mind when they train as well. People who compete in full-contact competitions and can't fight are rare just like people who don't compete and can fight are rare. I don't believe in an absolute answer to fighting but I do believe it is possible to stack the deck in your favour based on odds and percentages and both the percentage and number of martial artists who don't compete at all or compete in non contact competitions and can't fight is far greater than the percentage who do compete in full-contact competitions and can't fight. When numbers point so drastically towards competition putting you in a better position to defend yourself I'm going to come to the obvious conclusion that competing is an important part of learning to defend yourself. I'll also point out that is far harder to find poor quality schools that compete in full-contact competitions than it is to find poor quality schools that don't compete. After all it's easier to keep your shoddy teaching methods on the hush-hush when your students have no interaction with students from other schools. Competition raises several of the curtains of bullshit that a lot of schools hide behind.
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