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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2012 0:29:50 GMT -5
Do you cross train martial arts?
If so, which martial art is your core style and what other martial art do you cross train in? Why?
If not, why do you feel it is a bad idea?
My story- I have started Hapkido which I love. It has punches, elbows, knees, kicks, joint locks and throws. Plus weapon defenses. A great and complete martial art. All of it is great but I feel as an ex-Boxer that the punches aren't Boxing level so I cross train Boxing as well (with my coaches approval). But with the Hapkido emphasis on self defense, I cross train Boxing (punches, head movements etc) and with my Hapkido coach I adapt it to no gloves (Palm heel, hammer fists, back fists and slaps). In a year I will probably stop the Boxing cross training and then take up Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. The Hapkido dojang (traditional Hapkido but the coach is also progressive which is what Hapkido is all about) I am in also teaches BJJ so that's no problem. They teach BJJ as a stand alone martial art but also do the transitions from Hapkido throws etc. That way we have all the bases covered like MMA teaches (stand up, clinch and ground).
Love to hear your stories and thoughts.
Edit: I stopped my Tai Chi Chuan training because the school closed down and the only ones close by were Tai Chi exercise classes for the elderly. Now I train in Hapkido.
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Post by jwbulldogs on Sept 22, 2012 4:41:09 GMT -5
I have had training in a variety of martial arts. I believe that most martial artist at one time or another have done this for a variety of different reasons. I don't consider myself as a cross trainer in what way that people use that term today. I have never trained in an additional style to be well rounded. i do not train in additional styles because my style was lacking something or because it was incomplete. I like learning. I don't mind seeing things from a different perspective. I have found that things taught in other arts are basically the same just the philosophy or methodology may differ. It is completely possible that I might have only learned one art if my situation had not changed. But even in learning my first art we were introduced to things from other arts. We had to learn them since it was being taught. But we didn't earn rank in those arts. We met people from other arts and whatever they taught that day we did. i thought that was great.
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odee
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Post by odee on Oct 15, 2012 7:23:59 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure I'd still be a single stylist if money hadn't forced me to move. I took up MMA because the only Karate in my area was taught by a rubbish teacher. Out of all the other options the MMA gym provided the most likable training atmosphere; a Muay Thai class that made me happy as a strike heavy fighter and a Brazilian Jiujitsu class that is filling the gaps in my groundwork ability.
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Post by Possum on Oct 15, 2012 9:26:08 GMT -5
Yes, I do. I have studied Taekwondo for over 30 years, and recently took up Aikido 3 years ago. I concurrently practice both, and so I'm a cross-trainer. I did it because Taekwondo is woefully undertaught, and rarely includes anything to do with self-defense. Of the better schools I went to in the past, they relied on Hapkido - not Taekwondo - and so while I learned self-defense, I did not learn from a TKD perspective.
I don't mind others crosstraining, but I caution them to be sure to get experienced in one before going to another. I don't mean black belt, but I do mean stay with a single style for 3 or 4 years before doing both; or, give up one and then do another.
Why? Because philosophies conflict. What will you do on the street when a boxer is taught to punch to the jaw but your Aikido school says to off-balance him? When you have experience in one, you'll punch (and if that doesn't work, you off-balance); or you off-balance followed by a punch... that kind of thing.
Also, you need to be sure that some elements of your training hasn't been deliberately left out for sake of experience: it's not realistic to expect junior belts to learn advanced stuff for that style. People will quit a school after 6 months thinking none of what they were doing was applicable for self-defense. To them I'd say, "I'm sorry, but nothing you learn in the first 6 months of any school will be adequate."
So it is usually mindset that I object when people crosstrain. I say it is fine to do if you have the right reasons. What JWBullDogs did was good example of this: it wasn't out of inadequacy of any style or school, it was out of desire to expand knowledge. Perfectly good reason.
Others say they know their sport style isn't good for SD, so they c-t in a SD and sport school.
Lots of valid reasons, just give one a chance and become experienced before doing this.
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Post by jwbulldogs on Oct 20, 2012 0:49:47 GMT -5
Thank possum! I know this is off subject but how do we combat that type of ignorance that we all have seen? There are too many people that have started training in martial arts whether it was a good school or a mcdojo. They train for a short period of time and now they are expert enough to say this works or this doesn't work. The worst thing others will cosign and many will believe them. Most of them never earned rank higher than their second belt. Those that have a higher rank clearly don't deserve it. Our school is open. We allow anyone to come in and workout. One day this teenager comes in and asks to workout. He began to boast about his martial arts experience, 1st mistake. He said he was a brown belt. Then he told us he has only been training for 1 year. Sad! We were working on our basics. This child didn't know anything. My white belts began to question us, This guy is a brown belt? We know more than he does. That's horrible that white belt knows more than a brown belt. This guy wanted to spar too (another mistake). Of course I could let him spar with any advanced students. So I let my white belt that had never sparred before. He was about 3 years younger and half the size of the "brown belt". He was offended that he had to fight a white belt. After all he was much too advanced being a black belt and this guy was much to small. So we told him him you beat him first and we will let you fight this guy. My white belt was nervous at first since this was his 1st match. but it didn't take long before he put a whopping on that "brown belt". After getting embarrassed he got upset and left the class mouthing something. He should have been upset that he was paying that other school a lot of money and he hasn't learned anything. He needed to be in a place that will teach him and not just promote him. But we never saw him again.
How do we change this type of perception?
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odee
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Post by odee on Oct 20, 2012 18:46:15 GMT -5
There is no easy answer to that. But the best answer would be through mass exposure. Humans are designed to find the easiest way, we didn't rise to the top of the food chain because we naturally appreciate hard work, we rose because we're opportunists like foxes, raccoons or rats and some opportunistic humans are smarter than others which enables them to fool the others into doing the hard work for them.
I know it's a sentiment that has been a bit overused but it's the truth, people are easily swayed. Bruce Lee taught people that they could be strong by knowing a martial art, then taught people that HIS martial art was the strongest. The Gracies then re-educated people to believe that Gracie Jiu-jitsu was the strongest art. The current trend is Krav Maga. To change the perception you'd have to find a way to mass inform people and make them believe that learning martial arts should take massive amounts of time, effort and pain. The only ways to do that are through entertainment. You'd have to be able to make them unlearn the Karate Kid, unlearn the UFC, unlearn Bruce Lee and unlearn whatever their McDojo teacher has brainwashed them with. You're fighting an uphill battle but anything worth doing is always going to be difficult.
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Post by rollingrock128 on Oct 20, 2012 20:42:07 GMT -5
for me it is muay thai. i have been doing jiu jitsu longer than that but i did taekwondo since i was a kid and it was an easy transition to muay thai and got it really quick. i did muay thai and jui jitsu and judo at one time. currently i only do bjj i really can't afford the gym anymore but i want to get my black belt i came to far to not get it. so i just go a couple times a week paying a little for each class
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Post by jwbulldogs on Oct 21, 2012 4:49:43 GMT -5
Well, I'm going to respectfully disagree with some of the things that you are saying Odee. I don't agree with entertainment being the means to educate. I definitely do not agree that Gracies re-educated anyone that jui jitsu is the best. I will say they misled people into believing that BJJ is better than something else. Also we didn't rise to the top of the food chain. We were always at the top of the food chain. We have no known predators. There is nothing new about krav maga it was just getting some publicity. Entertainment leave out many other the things taught in self defense. The techniques taught are great. They come from time tested and battle tested TMA. But because it is entertainment and we live in a "civil" world even though everyone in it is not civil rules were created to make it more palatable to the general public. This way it doesn't seem so barbaric in nature. It "protect" its athletes, but more importantly it protects it's corporate images.
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odee
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Post by odee on Oct 21, 2012 7:27:45 GMT -5
Popular entertainment spreads ideas and ideals like the plague, it has always been the fastest way of spreading information and misinformation. By re-educate I meant in the same way that Bruce Lee made people believe his way of doing things was the best. A large portion of martial artists snorted and kept doing what they were doing, others tried Lee's 'new' method, which ironically is the same method that has been used to create martial arts since the dawn of time and a whole lot of Bruce Lee fanatics took it as gospel. Same with the Gracies and the UFC, some people snorted, some people tried it and a whole heap of groupies joined. Before we invented properly dangerous weaponry like spears just about every carnivore ate us. Without technology we rate about the same as foxes or raccoons, far lower than wolves or bears, no known predators my arse, there is still a Nile crocodile named Gustave who has taken an average of five people per year for the last sixty years. Between 1990 and 2005 lions were proved to have killed 563 people, many of them were eaten. I live in a country that has no big terrestrial predators but people still get killed and eaten every year by crocodiles. A company is in court at the moment facing animal cruelty charges, why? They used a pet dog as bait for a man-eating leopard that killed and ate two women. A leopard in Nepal is currently being hunted because it has killed five people in the last month. Check out African tribes or Indian populations that live on the edge of the jungle sometime, they stay on edge because they still get eaten by higher ranking predators. Healthy, strong, grown men still get eaten by animals because we aren't natural predators like lions and tigers, leopards and hyenas, we aren't naturally strong or fast or well equipped. We claimed the top of the food chain by being opportunists. Krav Maga hasn't changed but because of a heap of movies being choreographed by a Krav Maga exponent it has gained a whole lot of recognition. Here's the ironic part about TMAs they weren't created or battle tested by traditionalists, they were created and battle tested by people who weren't satisfied with what they were taught so they went and learned more from other sources. That's a modernist attitude. I don't reject TMA techniques I reject their mentality. Same as I reject the notion that modern styles teach anything new, but I acknowledge the mentality they display is the same one that has made the best martial arts since people started hitting each other. The modernist mindset is actually older and more successful than ANY traditional style. Thinking we are civil is an illusion, just like the illusion of a 'best style' or the illusion that we have no natural predators. You want to know how to dispell illusions but the fact is every human is still fooled by several.
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Post by jwbulldogs on Oct 21, 2012 19:15:45 GMT -5
The tem re-educate is not a correct term. A more correct term is mislead or misinform. But to the best of my knowledge it was not Lee's intention to have everyone believe that his way was better just like it was not his idea to create a new art form.
There is no proof of any animals being predatory on humans before weaponry was created. You must cite a statement like that. Yes there are animals that can and will kill a human even today, but we as humans are not something that they hunt or look at as food. Some animals are opportunist and have taken advantage of present circumstances like blood being in the water where there are sharks and a land species(human) is fluttering around. The shark doesn't know its human, it only sees dinner. Lion, tigers, etc general avoid humans. There are reasons why they attack humans but it is not generally because they think of us as food like they would a rabbit, deer, or other animal. TMA was created by people that were trying to survive. It became TMA because the knowledge and traditions were passed from one generation to the next. Modern people are leaving out the traditions and attempt to microwave everything. They often lack patience and the real illusion is they think they are doing something better because they have one left some things out in order to do things quicker. This has created a generation of people that are obese, sickly, cancerous and other illnesses that didn't exist. It didn't exist until we got so smart as to make process foods, fast foods, genetically altered foods, pesticides, herbicides, and steroids added to food to make them bigger faster. All these things were done in the name of science and making things better and faster. It is not ironic that these conditions are all caused by diet. Faster, bigger does not make things better. The same is true of martial arts. The illusion is that we believe our own lies. We even find out that they are lies and will not admit that they are lies. We just tell another lie to cover it up. Like Bruce his concepts were not new. He just wasn't aware of it yet. He stopped training under those that knew more than he did and didn't benefit from all of the knowledge that could be shared with him. He didn't stop training he just tried to reinvent the wheel. The Gracies lied and said BJJ is better. They beat some guys that weren't that great as complete martial artist. They were handpicked. They had success competing in their or arena. But taken out of there arena they were pretty much helpless. Then when the Gracie git beat by a someone with better striking skills people said oh you need to know how to strike too. The illusion is that was new. Well TMA has been doing that for years striking, choking, wrist locks, leg locks, throws. But we rather believe our own lies and accept the illusion that this is new. As you stated sports entertainment will spread things like wildfire. It will spread an illusion faster than it will the truth. Just think back to Orson Wells and the War of the Worlds. Panic, fear, and all types of emotions spread across our nation and who know where else because of a skit playing on the radio. Even after they acknowledge this was just a radio broadcast being done for entertainment. This is why nations around the world will spend Billions of dollars on the next diet fad that may be more harmful than good. Speaking of Krav Maga is became popular because they ran some ads saying this is no nonsense self defense. This is the fighting methods of the Israeli Army. No one before then believed that Israel's army fighting methods were greater than any other method of fighting. The strength of Israel army is not hand to hand combat. It is the fighter planes they get from the US. Every Army has a hand to hand combat training. Guess what? It is the same things taught in any good traditional martial arts class over time. An army don;t usually wait years to train its soldiers to fight. They don't have that much time. If you have to fight in hand to hand combat you are pretty much thought of by your superiors as casualties of war. You are correct that is not civil.
Please name one animal that humans are part of their diet? Please discuss the nutritional value that such animal will get from eating humans? This must also be backed up with scientific data as the break down of protein, fats, vitamins, mineral in proportion as to what is needed to maintain the life and existence of that predatory animal. You can't. You can only make generalizations that further spread your illusions. You study in the university? I'm sure you can support your statements. I know they teach that in the university support statement using credible sources.
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odee
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Post by odee on Oct 21, 2012 22:02:53 GMT -5
I didn't point at sport entertainment I pointed at entertainment in general. People are swayed by it to such a degree that they believe it to be true, mis-informed or not they've made it their reality. Much in the same way that there are people that believe in creationism to the point where they won't even consider the idea of evolution. Speaking of evolution people did not evolve before the use of created weapons, we just took modifying them to whole new levels, weapon use predates human evolution. www.nationalgeographic.com/adventure/photography/africa/tanzania/lions-maneating-3.htmlpin.primate.wisc.edu/factsheets/entry/chimpanzeewww.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/human_evolution/2012/10/evolution_of_anxiety_humans_were_prey_for_predators_such_as_hyenas_snakes.htmlwww.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/4535243?uid=3737536&uid=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&sid=21101345428457www.allaboutwildlife.com/chimpanzee-enemiesgenecuisine.blogspot.com.au/2011/03/human-dna-similarities-to-chimps-and.htmlwww.cs.ucr.edu/~eamonn/DNA/www.genome.gov/15515096Leopards, Lions, Tigers and pretty much anything that feeds on monkeys, baboons or apes will find the same nutritional value in a human and in many cases where we encounter them in the wild an easier meal. Remember our buddy the chimpanzee? 95% DNA match to humans, inside that DNA match is a 99% score of similar protiens, 98% for fats and 98% on other. Value for hunt we outweigh chimpanzees by 20-40kgs that is 40-80 pounds of extra meat on an easier kill now consider the fact that we are 94% DNA matched with baboons and 80% DNA matched with a cow or water buffalo which in turn hold 90% DNA similarities with zebra, funnily enough a lion could quite happily live off any or all of these food scources, that's like swapping to Pizza Hut when your favorite indipendent pizza chef has retired and closed his shop, it's still pizza. Humans make bigger meal changes when we give up on meat and become vegitarians or frugivores, wolves and foxes do it too, hell, I had more variety than that on my sandwich for lunch. The difference is that we don't hang out in the wild anymore, we make our homes in houses or cities, behind roads and cars that routinely flatten animals that try to cross those roads. Predators take the easiest prey that they know of, not only are we no longer living in places that make us easily accessed prey we no longer have the high encounter rates with the predators and they've forgotten we exist. What kind of animal actively hunts for something they no longer know about? That's how you starve to death. The animals have just targeted the next easiest prey on the list and made it their main food scource again I'll reference the pizza parlour swap. You know why animals become compulsive man-eaters after their first taste of our kind? It's because they realise how stupidly easy it is to take us down. We aren't the top of the food chain we've seperated ourselves from it. Not a bad effort considering I'm an illustration student, not a biologist.
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Post by jwbulldogs on Oct 22, 2012 0:54:42 GMT -5
LOL...
You provided some web links... None of these links provide any credible data that says any species hunt humans. None of them mention the necessary diets of any species for survival. None of them break down the nutritional value that a human will provide for any animal. Sharing similar DNA doesn't qualify a positional chart on the food chain. Your 1st link only say lion, leopards are opportunist. Sounds like something I said previously.
The 2nd link is quoted is the only one that feebly attempts to say humans were food. But if you read it it is only made up of speculation. Every animal has foods that are staples of their diets. Just because I can chew bubble gum and swallow it it doesn't appear as a staple in a human's diet. It doesn't provide the nutritional value to allow our bodies to maintain homeostasis. We feed or beloved pet dogs kibble. They are made up of mostly carbs, fillers, and preservatives. Whereas carbs, etc are not part of their original diet. There bodies can't properly digest corn, wheat, soy, rice, etc. They were designed to eat meat, fat. They ate it raw. Their digestive tract is small and don't have to worry about salmonella poising. Their acidic internal organs can handle salmonella. Our digestive tract is a much slower process at does not deal well with salmonella. The raw meat along with organs, and fats is perfectly matched to what a dogs need to maintain homeostasis. Sure you can feed them pizza hut and they will live, but just like us they won't be very healthy. Their stool will increase because their bodies can't use the food sources that it was given.
"Humans were eaten by giant hyenas, cave bears, cave lions, eagles, snakes, other primates, wolves, saber-toothed cats, false saber-toothed cats, and maybe even—bless their hearts—giant, predatory kangaroos. "
Yes that is a nice try...lol
You are an intelligent person. You can do better than that. You can admit there is no scientific data that supports you previous statement.
I can admit that there is some research that say some animal that has tasted humans become man-eaters. But that doesn't put us on their list for that species. Generally how an animal begins to attack humans is they are wounded and fight out of self preservation or the are protecting their young.
Logic says we should be part of their diet, They are stronger, faster and better hunters than we are. We are slower, we don't see as well or smell as well. We are often distracted making us the perfect prey. But they opt for other foods that make up their natural diets.
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odee
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Post by odee on Oct 22, 2012 7:22:47 GMT -5
All good for you to point and jeer, you haven't provided any evidence at all. You freely admit that we don't have the physical features of an apex predator, the toughness, the awareness or the instincts. You've read the reports of people being eaten by animals and admitted that we should be on their menu and then wash it all away with "But we aren't" that's just stupid, use your brain and tie those facts together dopey, we were made to be eaten. www.naturalhistorymag.com/htmlsite/0509/0509_feature.htmlAgain, the writings of a biologist/professor who studies lions in the Serengeti. The animals that can and do eat humans are all animals that have a diet that consists of anything they can catch, they're not going to die out just because we're not on the menu anymore. Just like they wouldn't die out if only Zebra for a lion or Tapair for a Jaguar suddenly became non-existant. They'd take the next best thing. Horses aren't natural food for lions but because they share so much in common with Zebra the lions will eat them anyway. We aren't on their menu because we've removed ourselves from that ecosystem long enough to become effectively non-existant to those animals. My ancestors might have eaten seal stew, my parents might have eaten seal stew but if I've been raised on beef, sheep and kangaroo and don't know seal stew exists I'm not going to lose any sleep over seal stew and I'm definitely not going to feel the need to hunt seals. The same is true of predatory animals, remove a food scource from one generation and the next generation will not actively hunt it. I used to keep ferrets the way I was taught to by my uncle, funny little critters that I'd bred and trained for four generations. They lived on fish and snake meat and hunted snakes. I used to make a proverbial killing hiring them out to people with snake problems. If there was one thing my ferrets knew it was how to hunt, kill and eat snakes. This enterprise stopped in one swoop when my neighbour fed some live chicks to the ferrets while I was away. The next time I took my ferrets on a snake hunt they ignored the snake holes, and shot out back to the chicken coop where they annhialated the client's chickens. Members of the weasle family are designed to hunt a variety of prey and like any predator they'll take the easiest prey on offer, they only hunted the snakes because snake meat was all they knew. The moment they got a taste for easier game the show was over. Why tussle with a tough, sometimes venomous reptile when there are big, stupid birds that taste better, have more meat and don't fight back? Just like the animals that should be hunting us the factor that stopped the ferrets from attacking birds was the fact that they didn't have a clue such things existed. It is the same story for a lion that spends its life painstakingly stalking warthogs that are alert and fast only to have to wrestle the thing and avoid being gored in order to eat it, not exactly fun but far easier than hunting water buffalo. That lion encounters an oddball creature one day, tall, gawky and strangely oblivious to the dangerous cat. The lion takes an opportunistic attack because that's what it was designed to do and discovers that this creature is stupid and frail and has about the same amount of meat as the warthog, what is the next natural step? The lion does what it was designed to do and hunts things that smell and look like that easier prey, the lion becomes a man-eater. We slide into the prey category of the food chain so damn easily it's embarrassing.
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Post by Possum on Oct 22, 2012 15:40:15 GMT -5
If I may, I also think Hollywood had more to do to hurt martial arts than it did to help it. Yes, all thanks are due to Lee who popularize it for us - that is clear and undeniable. And thanks also to Jackie Chan, Chuck Norris, Steven Segal, and Van Damm and a bunch of others. Even the sports folks.
But what these performers did - for that's what they are - was provide entertainment, not a documentary or a "how-to" or knowledge in any way. There may be pearls of wisdom here and there, but sometimes witty comments like "boards don't hit back" are rephrased over and over, and people start to believe. And so entertainment may get us interested, it does little to educate.
People are famous for hating forms and seeing their uselessness just because that's what Lord Bruce Lee said.
Entertainment is just that - a double-edged sword. Even shows like Fight Science and others of its ilk are occasionally misguided - and they're meant to be documentaries.
...
As to predators, I tend to think we don't have natural predators (other than ourself), but, if we inhabited a predator's territory - whether it's as large as a lion, croc, or shark; or as small as an insect; or even smaller as a germ, we are bound to get eaten. Our defenses (self-defense, if were are to keep this on martial arts topic :-) are that we have intelligence, opposing thumbs, and numbers. And with that, we can build barriers and weapons. And with that, we can control that which no other animal in the world can do: water, fire, air, earth, rock, and tree. And so predatorial food chain becomes moot, I think.
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Post by Possum on Oct 22, 2012 15:47:09 GMT -5
Thank possum! I know this is off subject but how do we combat that type of ignorance that we all have seen? ... How do we change this type of perception? I don't really know, perhaps, becoming more charismatic (and knowledgeable) than the Ignorati. Spread the word. Be the person everyone wishes they could become. You left me to ponder this awhile, so I'll do that. Honestly? I'm not in it for the money, yet I lose students to schools who charge more than above-average rates around here. I wonder if I'm that bad?
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