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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2012 1:46:44 GMT -5
Is it just me or are certain members making the forums very confrontational and personal. Chill out guys and chat. No need for personal or childish attacks. That is what the warzone is for.
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odee
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Post by odee on Oct 23, 2012 4:29:42 GMT -5
Feh, Dogs and I are just stubbourn. We don't hate each other.
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Post by jwbulldogs on Oct 24, 2012 0:09:34 GMT -5
Regardless of their initial experience with human flesh, once lions learn that people can be eaten, some become repeat offenders. Some habitual man-eaters are males, some are females, some are old, and some are young. Sometimes whole prides partake.
This is taken from your link. This also debunk your theory that humans were once part of their diet. It says that they must learn that humans can be eaten. It doesn't place humans high on the list as something that predatory animal that he was studying ate as a staple in it's diet. I have the means to kill and eat many different animals. But they aren't part of my diet. If I got hungry enough or desperate enough who knows what I might do, but right now they are safe at least from me hunting them for food. Nothing in any of your post suggests that human were once regularly hunted by any predator or that human make up their food choices.
Possum,
I agree the Hollywood does both good and bad as far as spreading things concerning martial arts. What I saw about Bruce Lee was the initial driving force that made me want to learn martial arts. But one given the opportunity to learn I discovered that it was not like the things I saw in his movies. Now the kids today have other things that are done in movies that we must combat when people come in wanting to learn. I've gotten a host of teen that believe what they have seen and want to do things there are only possible in "Hollywood". I think there was even a thread on here about reaching and snatching someones heart our with our bare hands.
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Post by jwbulldogs on Oct 24, 2012 0:17:44 GMT -5
I have much respect for Odee. I agree with many things that he says. But he and I are both stubborn. LOL
Speaking of dogs since I mention dogs. I can feed my dog table scraps. They will love them because of the taste. But it is not the ideal diet to give my dog their proper nutrition. They may even appear on the surface to be doing well but over time it will lead to many unhealthy conditions for my dogs. They will even begin to reject foods that are healthy for them in favor of my table scrap. They will enjoy the table scraps because of its taste, much like a predator that has become a man-eater the will return to eating other humans because of the preferred taste. Your article says nothing about eating humans as natural prey like they do about the pigs as they use them to survive. Certain animals use certain food as they are natural for them to eat.
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Post by jwbulldogs on Oct 24, 2012 2:48:24 GMT -5
topyaps.com/top-10-predators/Not only have we killed, hunted everything for a number of reasons we have destroyed species to the level of extinction through our hunting and by destroying their ecosystem. We have no peers as predators. Most other animals hunt for survival. That could be to fulfill its nutritional necessities or to protects its young or habitat. We kill just because we can, food, greed, fur, tusk, leather, etc.
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odee
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Post by odee on Oct 24, 2012 6:00:42 GMT -5
How does that debunk my theory? Lions have to learn to hunt everything else on their menu so it stands to reason that they'd have to learn that we can be hunted as well.
Cheetahs learn too.
It's the same for wolves, tigers and bears. They learn from watching and joining their parents what can be hunted and how to hunt it. If their parents don't know that human prey exists how can they teach their cubs to hunt it? Hunting something that doesn't exist is a one way ticket to extinction, our current predators manage because they have broad diets and the ability to add foods to that diet and forget about foods that can't be obtained. Look at the other tribe in the story, the lions rarely bother them because they go out and kill any lion that touches their stuff, dead lions don't teach anything so that area becomes a void in the pride's knowledge. Same with my ferrets, if I hadn't been ordered to destroy all my ferrets they would have forgotten about bird meat in the space of a single generation simply because the new generation would never know anything but snake and fish meat.
Lions kill cheetah, hyena, cape dogs and leopard for the same reason we kill wolves. Unless they're properly starving they don't even eat them so most researchers believe they're just killing off the competition. So why do they eat a good number of humans that they kill? For the same reason they eat baboons, chimps or any monkey that they manage to bag, it's a primate and it's part of the diet they're supposed to eat.
If your dogs start rejecting proper foods the simple answer is to starve them for a few days, they'll go back to eating what they're supposed to eat which is pretty much anything anyway. My dogs all lived off table scraps along with the weekly dose of bones from the butcher, with the exception of one that got hit by a car every single one of my dogs exceeded the standard age for their breed. I currently have two shetland sheepdogs aged sixteen and eighteen for a breed of dog that has a life expectency of fifteen years.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2012 18:00:08 GMT -5
I think this thread should be moved. It has nothing to do anymore with the topic of 'Do you crosstrain martial arts'.
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odee
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Post by odee on Oct 25, 2012 16:50:42 GMT -5
Okay, I've started a new thread for the predator prey business in the philosophy section so we can get back to the question of cross-training.
Back on track. Personally I divide people who cross-train into three groups.
Style hoppers - People who tend to spend between a month and a year at any given style or school. Their reasons may differ, some are still trying to decide what they want in a martial art, some are looking for the miracle solution to fighting and some are just plain old trendies looking for the latest and greatest system. Style hoppers differ greatly in athletic ability but most are hacks that will quit the moment things don't go their way.
Experience seekers - I'd fall into this category as would the Gracie brothers, most Kyokushin shodans and the founders of most traditional styles. Experience seekers aren't looking to change martial arts they're learning to use their martial art in any given situation by tracking down different kinds of fighters to train and spar with. The more things you experience the slimmer the chance of being surprised. Experience seekers will often wind up as dual stylists because sooner or later they'll find another school that compliments their first.
Gap fillers - There are two types of gap fillers in my opinion. People who are too impatient to wait for their teachers to teach them the other elements of their style and people who know the other elements of their style don't exist. I personally find it irritating when people describe competitive styles as incomplete martial arts or merely shrug them off as sport. Competitors in my opinion are specialists. They're the best of the best in their chosen area. The hundred best punchers in the world are most likely Boxers and Kickboxers, the hundred best throwers would probably be Judoka or Jujutsuka, the hundred best groundworkers would likely be BJJ and Wrestlers and the hundred best kickers would probably be a mixture of Taekwando, Capoeira and Savate. There are proponents of broader styles who dismiss it as pointlessness and there are proponents of broader styles who believe that these specialised students must be taken on under their own terms to understand just what kind of heights can be reached in those areas.
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Post by jwbulldogs on Oct 26, 2012 14:08:47 GMT -5
Frazier, I'm sorry if we offended you. You are correct that that had nothing to do with the original thread. But that is also the nature of having open threads. They can lead to other conversations. As most people were no longer talking about cross training.
Most martial artist in one way or another have done some cross training. There is a trend today that is saying that you must cross train in order to be a well rounded fighter. But that was not the reasons why seasoned martial artist or the old master trained in various styles. Like Odee mentioned they often were seekers of knowledge. This knowledge could be used to add to what they knew and not change what they were doing. But it could also be used to protect themselves in to make sure they weren't unaware of what someone else might do. One of the rules of war s to know your enemy. If you know how they fight it makes it easier to defend yourself against them. This is one of the theories as to why techniques were hidden within kata. This allowed them to continue to train openly and not allow outsiders to know exactly what they were doing. This would give them an element of surprise. I call it a theory as there are a variety of theories as to why this was done. Personally I believe there was truth in many of the theories that I have come across.
Personally I would have likely remained in one style if my situation had not changed that prevented me from continuing with my 1st sensei. I still communicate with him today. But even in his dojo we were exposed to a variety of other arts. Being exposed game me a curiosity of other arts. I hold rank in a variety of arts. I have trained in these arts today because I enjoy training. I like learning different things that are of interest to me. I've learned there are many ways of accomplishing to same goal. No one way is the only correct way. There can be different approaches to accomplishing the same thing.
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Post by Possum on Oct 26, 2012 20:27:09 GMT -5
I can't remember which author said it (either, Abernethy or Wilder/Kane), but the statement was made that back in the day, a style would look nothing as it does today: they've not only evolved, but they've specialized. Grappling in Karate was adequate for those using it in the old days - and is probably fine today. But because of sport, nearly all styles have evolved into something that they've specialized in their niche.
That is why i think that sport styles - the ones withthe profound evolution - are not well suitable for self-defense for most people. There are athletes who are the best of the best, and they break the mold. But the vast majority of practitioners who engaged in a sport martial art could not defend themselves against as wide a variety of attacks as their more traditional counterparts. It is likely that they would do well in a limited number of confrontations - usually one-on-one, the drunk, the fight over a girl, that kind of thing. But of course, we can't customize or pick and choose our confrontations. We have to accept what befalls us. Sport practitioners often say they're just as good as traditionalists, but how often do they train against weapons and multiple opponents?
Whatever their case, the pursuit of something complete is needed because most sport styles have uber-specialized - to the detriment of a well-rounded curriculum. That is why taekwondo and karate get such a bad rep, and not just because of the mcdojos out there: plenty of good schools teaching good - but specialized - taekwondo or karate tend to leave out the other stuff that's not typically used in SD. Unlike many traditionalists, I don't mind calling a sport martial artist a martial artist, or their style a martial art. But I am not fooled into thinking that sport styles as typically taught are good SD curriculums.
For me, I have no desire to do the real specialized stuff: I want to learn the styles as they were taught years ago. I don't want to throw another roundhouse kick, or a jumping spin kick. That is why I jumped ship and took up Aikido. A modern style teaching old-style techniques. And believe it or not, but what's taught today (in Aikido) is considered specialized by OI Sensei's standard.
Just my 2 cents, sorry to rant...
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2012 1:23:20 GMT -5
For me, I have no desire to do the real specialized stuff: I want to learn the styles as they were taught years ago. I don't want to throw another roundhouse kick, or a jumping spin kick. That is why I jumped ship and took up Aikido. A modern style teaching old-style techniques. And believe it or not, but what's taught today (in Aikido) is considered specialized by OI Sensei's standard. Great to see someone who respects Aikido and sees its practicality:)
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odee
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Post by odee on Oct 28, 2012 5:19:36 GMT -5
I disagree on a few points there Possum. Being a Taekwando practitioner you should know as well as I do for my ten years in Karate that your school is not the norm for your style. Well taught traditional styles are as rare as the proverbial rocking horse shit. With the exception of Olympic Taekwando it's not the athletic side of the martial arts that are going downhill at a great rate. The martial arts that often get branded as McDojos are organisations that have severed themselves from the rest of the martial arts community and declared their style 'complete' they don't deal with other martial arts at all. Bujinkan Ninjutsu, Go Kan Ryu Karate, Rhee Taekwando, ATA Taekwando and many other Traditional organisations have cut themselves off and students have no idea where they stand against other martial artists or the average Joe on the street. There is a reason most McDojos claim Traditional heritage and that's because they can throw up the 'It's worked for hundreds of years' or 'it's been battle tested' crap. The thing about skill is that it can only be tested in application by each practitioner who learns it, take Japanese Jujutsu for example, it has a long history of military use but if I learned it alongside another guy in boot-camp then we seperated and I got assigned as an armour polisher while he was out on the front-lines using it then regardless of the style's history his skill-set would be battle tested, mine would not. A martial artist doesn't NEED to crosstrain but they do need to interact with students of different styles in order to guage what they can do and what they need to do better. Boxing isn't for me, I'm not going to specialise in that area but I've practiced Boxing and experienced enough to respect the general ability to fight with fists alone. To beat them in a street fight a martial artist would need more than just the knowledge that a Boxer is going to struggle with leg based attacks, that martial artist would need a defense that at least keeps a good percentage of that Boxer's ability at bay. I've seen people with knives, bottles, bars and number advantages go down to one of the bouncers I work with simply because even with those advantages they were no match for the skill that backs his fists. When I did Karate I learned how to strike, I learned how to kick, to throw, to sweep, control, wrestle and fight in self defense situations but it wasn't until I visited the specialists in each area that I learned just how well those things could be done and just how general the people I'd learned to apply them on were.
Before pointing the finger at athletes and specialists I'd be looking for a better way of removing or exposing the rubbish schools from under the traditional banner. Before it became a site of haters I thought Bullshido was really on the right path, they were doing some real good in exposing rubbish schools and organisations for what they were.
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Post by Possum on Oct 29, 2012 0:24:48 GMT -5
Odee, I'm not sure on what points you disagree, I tend to agree with most of your points though I know little or nothing of the orgs you mention, except WTF. And about that, I can say that good WTF figters are formidable opponents. They might break the rules in street fighting, but they are the few that can get away with it. Are they the type to find themselves in a bar fight or a dark alley? I don't read about them in the news, so I'd have to say "no". As to the McDojos, yes - they alone are the evil things that degrade the rest of us. But I've seen good schools in bad organizations, and bad schools in good organizations - though I hesitate to classify any organization as "good" since I am suspicious of why they are there to begin with.
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Chef Samurai
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Post by Chef Samurai on Oct 29, 2012 1:56:10 GMT -5
yes I do & I cross train in all styles.
I do it because few styles are complete even though some are close they are still missing stuff like few styles have advanced ground fighting skills like caoperia or the internal flow of taijiquan & each individual style is like a kata/toula/poomsae/form of the "human style" that all humans are capable of.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2012 2:55:27 GMT -5
What's wrong with Rhee Taekwondo? Is that the one based in Australia?
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