Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2012 2:40:49 GMT -5
Why do traditional martial artists say combat sports are no good for self defense?
How are combat sports good for self defense?
I was thinking of doing some Muay Thai and people jumped onto that to say its crap for self defense.
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Keyboard Warrior
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Post by Keyboard Warrior on Sept 27, 2012 2:55:31 GMT -5
Oh lordy don't get me started. We both disagree with how one another trains. I have trouble understanding the traditional perspective, because it almost feels like they are grasping at straws.
I've reccomended this video time and time again. It's about Ninjutsu, but I think it sums up all of TMA, and why us modern guys train the way we do.
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Post by jwbulldogs on Sept 27, 2012 4:21:19 GMT -5
You have the wrong message about TMA and what they think of sports. Muay thai was created from TMA for sporting purposes. Therefore the techniques used are valid techniques and useful. But the training is not done with self defense in mind. It doesn't mean it can't be used, but it is limited. It lacks many things that should be taught in a self defense structured class. The target differ as well as the intent differs.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2012 4:31:42 GMT -5
jwbulldogs. What things should be taught for self defense? What should I look out for when checking out martial arts?
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Post by jwbulldogs on Sept 27, 2012 4:36:23 GMT -5
i went back to see the video that KW posted. That is a joke. That is not TMA. I don't know what that is. Nothing against ninjistsu. I only know 2 people that have trained in it and neither are any good in my opinion. One is my cousin. I know he was trying to get a black belt and he would come to our dojo for additional training. He wouldn't have a yellow belt in our class. I did meet one guy I think he does ninjitsu but I'm not certain. This guy is good or okay would be a better term. He would be okay in a self defense situation. Also looking at the video neither of those guys used for examples look like a real fight. As a person that has trained and been in a umber of situation none of the things I've faced looked like any of those things shown in the video. It doesn't look like the time when the gun was put to my head. I should have been more aware of my surroundings. It doesn't look like the one that I took a knife from a person trying to kill someone else. It doesn't look like any of the many gang fights I've seen. The ones on the street only look like the ones where neither guy knew how to fight or had any real substantial training. Guys throwing wild punches hoping they will land somewhere.
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Post by Glutton4Punishment on Oct 3, 2012 14:46:40 GMT -5
You have the wrong message about TMA and what they think of sports. Muay thai was created from TMA for sporting purposes. Therefore the techniques used are valid techniques and useful. But the training is not done with self defense in mind. It doesn't mean it can't be used, but it is limited. It lacks many things that should be taught in a self defense structured class. The target differ as well as the intent differs. 110% false. Muay Thai as we know it today was not created for sporting purposes. Old Muay Thai and new Muay Thai both share in having fighting AND competitive training outlets, only the new Muay Thai training outlet is less ridiculously and needlessly dangerous. Muay Thai as we now know it still contains illegal non-sporting techniques when taught from a proper Kru. There is emphasis on competitive applications as well, but those competitive applications directly aid in creating a better fighter or else they would not exist. Muay Thai is not a game. Practitioners, even ones that don't fight but train properly, hit hard and take hard hits on a regular basis, far more regular than the vast majority of TMA stylists, and that is why it is so useful for real fighting. REAL fighting breeds fighters, and the closer you get to REAL fighting the better at it you will be. Flow drills and point sparring are not even close to a real fighting dynamic and will never, ever breed a real fighter. Not all TMA styles rely on drills to teach them to fight, but most do in my experience. Many of your posts are much better than this. I expect less BS in the future. What kind of sport allows bare elbows to the soft spot of the skull? That's quite simply pure stupidity to even spout.
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odee
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Kyokushin 10 years - Brazilian Jujitsu 3 years - Muay Thai 2 years.
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Post by odee on Oct 3, 2012 17:52:26 GMT -5
I get taught Muay Thai by a coach and I still have to practice a lot of the same self defence pieces that I was taught doing Karate, the biggest difference is the time I would have spent teaching and learning kata at Kyokushin is now spent on more sparring, in short getting a feel for the way people move when they're trying to hit you. I have no problem with TMA the way it should be, I have a problem with TMA students and teachers bagging rules when the vast majority of them can't fight any better now than when they first started training. Proper TMA the way it was when its students made people pay attention is brilliant, it's also rare and getting rarer and it's not MMA or Kickboxing that's killing it off it's people teaching rubbish under the TMA banner. Full contact combat sports have what the failing TMA schools are lacking and lots of it - Intent. With or without rules the guys in those competitions mean you harm and will harm you if you don't beat them to the punch. The comparison Keyboard Warrior posted shows how badly that intent is lacking in the Bujinkan organisation and other schools that have been branded McDojos, I don't have a problem with the techniques they're using, the techniques DO WORK but the percentage of Bujinkan students and teachers who could actually pull them off in a fight is so bad it's laughable and it isn't even that the techniques are difficult, the problem is that the students have never learned to apply them under pressure or even learned to deal with the pressure of a confrontation. I went to an all-styles competition hosted and run by Go Kan Ryu while I was still doing Kyokushin and mauled five guys, four from that style, to win the full contact event, though their karate was similar on a technical level to Kyokushin it was pretty easy to see that they had far less experience with fighting with the intent of knocking people out. It wasn't skill or ability that put me above those people it was the fact that I'd spent more time trying to knock out people who were trying to knock me out.
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Post by Glutton4Punishment on Oct 10, 2012 16:56:36 GMT -5
I want to bring up a bit of what makes "Modern" styles so effective: Sparring. Plenty of styles out there CLAIM that they have full contact sparring incorporated in their art. Usually their idea of "full contact sparring" is either very limited padding and calling the fight over after one hit because of how deadly it is or dressing people up like the Pillsbury Dough Boy and telling them to just go wild. The thing that separates the full contact sparring methods of Modern styles from Traditional styles is it's execution. People wear enough padding to keep from sending their training partners to work the next day covered in welts, bruises, and cuts, but not so much that contact is painless and inconsequential. This provides enough pressure for people to really get some idea of what it's like to be in a fight that they would otherwise not have gotten. On top of that, this type of sparring doesn't stop at learning to hit, block, and move and then just doing it. Nobody gets a better grasp of different fighting tactics than somebody that spars full contact and experiences that pressure on a regular basis. People don't realize how many different ins and outs to fighting there are. It's not as simple as "if anybody does this, do this" like what is taught in many TMA drills. The little things such as whether an opponent is right or left handed, how tall or short they are, their proportions, the subtle things that are unique to their style, all make a huge difference on the outcome of a fight and those who partake in full contact sparring get a good feel for all of these variables over time where those who don't implement full contact at all or who implement it in an unrealistic way and pretend it's just as good simply will not get a feel for this.
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odee
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Kyokushin 10 years - Brazilian Jujitsu 3 years - Muay Thai 2 years.
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Post by odee on Oct 10, 2012 17:20:28 GMT -5
Ring craft. Knowing from experience that small changes can make huge differences and that every moment in a fight is different to the last and the next. A small shift of the head can change a knockout blow to a glancing shot that means absolutely nothing. A perfect front kick can be countered in moments, that counter can be recognised and upset by something as simple as a weight shift which in turn can expose a fighter for a foot sweep. Ring craft is the ability grown on experience to notice these things and capitalise on them or fight your way past them when things go downhill.
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