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Post by Glutton4Punishment on Jun 8, 2013 19:23:58 GMT -5
I was thinking about this on the can, also known as my "Throne of Thought". I know there are hundreds, if not thousands, of videos from stand up styles of all different types addressing the question: "What if I [As a striker] am attacked by somebody attempting a takedown?" Usually this is answered by some sort of basic takedown defense that really may or may not work and is followed by those who asked thinking "Great, that answers that question!" Now these people leave thinking "Great, now I know how to deal with a grappler." Here's the issue - I find that not enough people keep asking questions beyond this. "What if my defense doesn't work? What if I didn't have time to react to the takedown or I was taken down before I knew I was in a fight? Heck, what if I wasn't even taken down but just happened to trip and my opponent capitalized on it? I'm human, not even the greatest master on Earth is immune to gravity!" So there are a ton of people out there thinking they know all they really need to stay on their feet, but reality just might hit them in the face, or conversely their face might just hit reality instead (the ground). The way I look at it is this: The BEST anti-grapplers out there became the best by studying grappling. Everything a grappler learns to do to take somebody down, they'll also learn how to defend against, just like every striker learns how to defend against the strikes that they know. They also didn't put their eggs into one basket. They didn't say "Now I know how to defend against this, so I'm set." Instead, they took into account as many different scenarios as possible and learned how to deal with everything they possibly could. This simply doesn't happen in any other non-grappling focused school I've ever seen. So here's my question: How well have you (the NON-grappler) addressed the possibility of no longer being on your feet in a fight? I know there are plenty of people that think "Nobody could ever take me down!" But this is the real world, and nobody is perfect, and nobody knows this better than the most experienced martial artists here. Looking at yourself objectively, how ready do you think you are if you wind up on the ground? This question is for both the TMA and "Modern" guys that aren't grappling focused. I'll also accept answers for the inverse of this, how grapplers feel about dealing with strikes.
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Keyboard Warrior
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Post by Keyboard Warrior on Jun 8, 2013 23:22:20 GMT -5
I think its silly for these guys to think they even stand a chance against someone that knows what they're doing. I have trouble stopping my coaches takedowns, and I would like to think I know what I'm doing. What chance does someone have, that doesn't train grappling and takedowns as much as I do, have against someone like my coach? None.
In the end, if you're so concerned with anti-grappling...why don't you become a grappler yourself? If you can't beat them, join them.
But to answer the question, in the inverse, how I'm prepared to handle strikes. It's not as if I'm completely clueless when it comes to striking. Will I beat a pure striker? No, but just like he wants to execute his game plan, I want to execute mine. If I can't get the fight to the ground, then I don't deserve to win obviously. If I can't get it to the ground, then I'm about as prepared as alot of these strikers with pseudo grappling experience.
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KyKarateka
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Kyokushin & Judo
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Post by KyKarateka on Jun 9, 2013 0:19:15 GMT -5
I'm mainly a stand up fighter, it's where I'm strong, I started with karate is probably why. I'm not completely incompetent on the ground, if I were taken to the ground then I would be able to hold my own but again stand up is my strong point.
A lot of people discredit grappling when they really haven't tried it. It looks simple until you actually get into it and realize how technical it actually is.
About grapplers learning strikes though. I've had friends that were pure grapplers but they learned basic striking combinations informally and they can do pretty decent striking. It applies the other way as well, a striker can learn to grapple informally but without a proper instructor they'll still be at a disadvantage.
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Post by Glutton4Punishment on Jun 9, 2013 2:42:10 GMT -5
KyKarateka, how is your Ne Waza focus in Judo? I studied Judo in two different schools for about a year in total, one was a very traditional club and the other a very sport focused one. Both had Ne Waza training, but now that I've dived into BJJ for the last 2 weeks I have to say I've ALREADY surpassed everything I learned on Ne Waza in Judo. Do you feel that your Ne Waza goes into good depth compared to most Judo schools? And have you considered testing it in some friendly rolling in a BJJ school or other Submission Wrestling gym of some sort?
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odee
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Post by odee on Jun 9, 2013 6:27:12 GMT -5
I think it's just a matter of finding out how to use what you have. It's entirely possible to fend off a grappler using a known striking art like Karate, Boxing or Muay Thai - I do it every time I compete in MMA. I do have grappling experience and that does help with a bit of confidence that I can worm my way out of a good number of positions but mostly my defense comes from plain old experience. Because of the years I played rugby I'm actually fairly competent at putting even the better guys in my gym on their faces when they try for take-downs, slams or tackles just because even the best MMA take-down is no more of a surprise than when somebody manages to blindside you out of the ruck or when you've just picked up a play the ball, once you have that experience and resistance you can respond with pretty much anything you choose.
Personally I got kicked in the head by the first proper grappler I ever faced. I was so concerned about avoiding take-downs and not getting thrown that I wasn't fighting anywhere close to what I was capable of and in the dying seconds of the first round Mr Judo smacked my skull with his heel. He wasn't the only one because my coach slapped me in pretty much the same spot and yelled for a while about fighting to win not fighting not to lose before I went back out. That was a good lesson in not over-thinking things.
I'm not saying don't bother learning groundwork - If it's available go get it, if it's not available go find it. But the best defense against anything and everything is experience. If you have any mates on American football teams near you get some tackling practice with them, if you can strike-stop big guys in helmets and massive pads from ploughing you into the turf then there's a fair chance that you'll break a mixed martial artist who tries to take you down, mostly though you'll find evasion rather than any kind of counter will be your best friend. Getting out from under big guys in heavy gear could be reasonably good training for escape practice too come to think of it.
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Post by kokoro on Jun 9, 2013 13:28:40 GMT -5
first off grappling does NOT mean ground fighting, why do you people think it does. grappling can be done standing or on the ground.
i just came from a 12 hour shotokan seminar where i was only one of several the instructors. and almost all of them taught grappling, most taught grappling for most of their section. my teach was one of the instructors as well. the only style he has ever done was shotokan. and his grappling is identical to japanese jujutsu, a style he never trained. you should see how he tore apart a bjj practitioner one year.
as for ground fighting i know enough reversals to get back feet if im fighting a bjj person. and possibly regain control of the fight. one of my early instructors i had we did quite a bit of ground work. as i stated its not as detailed as bjj. but intent isnt to win a ground fight its to survive long enough to regain a better position and win under my terms.
ground fighting can be both striking and grappling. and even close range you can strike. within a few inches i can break a persons rips with a strike. i dont need a lot distance for power.
fighting takes place 3 dimensions standing on the ground and in between. when some one takes me to the ground its at a cost to them an i make sure of it. unlike most i continue to strike and grapple until i hit the ground. and i have no rules when i fight. and i have ways of getting people to move that are rather nasty and wont cause a perminiate injury at least most of the time
as for fighting in general, to be a well round fighter you need to train all areas, which is what traditional styles are suppose to do, the problem is most dont understand what there style contains even instructors, so they end up cross training. in my opinion cross training should not be done for at least 8 to 10 years until you get your basics down.
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Post by Glutton4Punishment on Jun 9, 2013 16:14:55 GMT -5
Kokoro, there are fighters on a world class level in the UFC and in other MMA organizations that started training in multiple styles at once and made their way into the world class level in less than that amount of time after jumping right into cross training with no wait. Considering this, why would you think cross training shouldn't be done for so long? I can pretty well guess that you wouldn't bet on yourself if you had to square off against Max Holloway, the UFC's youngest fighter at 21 years old, who is fighting at that high a level with only about a decade of training in both striking and grappling which is how long you mentioned one should WAIT before cross training at all.
As for this "I fight without rules" mentality, how do you justify this? If you have the ability to defeat an attacker who is trying to knock your head around on the street without seriously hurting him because you're simply a better fighter than he is, then why would you act as if potentially lethal techniques are fair game? A good martial artist doesn't fight dirty. That's the mentality of a coward or somebody that's just hoping they get attacked so that they can escalate the violence and seriously hurt somebody thinking that they'll just hide behind "self defense" as a reason for the escalation and nobody will press charges because they gouged an eye out over a bloody lip. This is so far from Budo that I find it ridiculous, and I would think a Karateka would take Budo seriously. I don't even study Karate and I'd consider my way of fighting more Budo than not. If I can throw somebody, I'll throw them on their back and not their head and try to submit them. No punch to the face is worth possibly maiming or killing over as far as I'm concerned.
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Post by kokoro on Jun 9, 2013 16:44:36 GMT -5
How many hours a day do those pro fighters train vs the average person?
the average person doesn't train every day, they train, about one and half hours to two hours two to four times a week they don't train even a quarter of what the pro's do.
it takes most people 5 years to became a black belt which is an understanding of the basics, nothing more. if a person train like the pro fighters do then they can get a black belt in about a year. one year vs five years is a big difference. and then that would in turn cut down the time i would recommend for cross training
g4p your comparing apples to oranges.
how many people do you know train the same number of hours as a pro fighter.
when i was younger i trained at least 20 to 30 hours a week, i had my own school at which i taught another 20 plus hours, week plus i worked full time. ruffly knocking out almost 2/3 of my week, i only needed 3 to 4 hours of sleep back then. there were many days i sleeped about an hour a day. how many adults that train can do that. i know today i can't do that, partly because of my work scheduled and because i need more sleep then that now a days. in a fight on the street with any one i intend to be the last one standing, i dont fight with rules, i fight with one purpose in mind. and a fight for me should last less then 10 secs, if it goes beyond 30 secs i did something wrong.
when i trained over 30 years ago, it was a completely different mentality then it is today, we didnt use safety equipment, matts or have weight class in training and it was all full contact, when we got thrown to the ground it was on a hard floor you either learn to fall or you went to the hospital after a while. it wasnt this tag point crap they do now a days. that crap just pisses me off now a days all these kids need to be spoon fed and there parents get up set if john gets punch in the nose too hard. its a friggen contact sport there going to get hit and bleed they friggen need to get over that crap.
\sorry for the rant
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odee
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Post by odee on Jun 9, 2013 18:09:16 GMT -5
Taking things to the highest level quickly can sometimes give you an edge but other times it might well earn you a breaking where before you'd have only taken a few bruises and lost some self esteem. I'm of the belief that if you can't hit your assailant with a closed fist then trying to poke their eyes out isn't going to do you any better, if anything it will probably prove worse - Your aggressor now knows you're playing for keeps and won't hesitate to 'cheat'. Fail to blind when you poke the eyes of a Muay Thai student and his next low kick might smash your knee-joint rather than bruise your thigh. Start cheap-shotting a BJJ student and he might just take that lock or choke-hold a little further than he would have otherwise. If I can make my point without offending the other party I'm all for it, why take things further than they have to go?
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Post by kokoro on Jun 9, 2013 18:17:13 GMT -5
I have never had to resort to poking an eye ball out of a persons head, there are far more less sever things that will work a lot quicker. Like jamming a finger into the soft tissue of the throat and pushing downward, people react rather quickly to such an attack, people tend to like to breath. And it requires very little effort on my part. Not all situations you need to bust a person up so bad they go to the hospital. And to me wining a situation doesn't mean the other person is perminalty injured or majory injured, it means I'm still standing, and can continue the situation or reevaluate my options The body is riddled with weak points, where the body will automatically react to it. The body has little chose to react to a lot of them
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Post by kokoro on Jun 9, 2013 18:44:09 GMT -5
all i see on yahoo is people think tma only has eye gouges and punching to the throat and or groin. we study the anatomy as well and body reaction, that is the main difference. there are suddlety to make a person react. which i dont think any of you train in. your all concerned with rules and not survival and you think those rules only illuminate a few techniques or prevent a majorly injury when it does far more
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odee
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Post by odee on Jun 9, 2013 21:26:03 GMT -5
Under adrenaline the body can also ignore a lot of those pain receptors and knee-jerk actions, our bodies are a fascinating bit of kit. I'm not saying you have to rip a person open to get your point across or to win (I'm pretty sure I said you often don't have to and shouldn't) but people bring rules up so often as some kind of retardation on learning a martial art that it drives me crackers. Life is full of rules and everyone has a line that you cross at your own risk, I might be oddball for this but I wouldn't hold a grudge against someone who punched me in a fight or even beat me in a fight - I'd hazard a guess the same is true for Glutton, if someone picked up a bottle or a knife to use as a weapon or called friends over to help them I'd be offended, I'd want them to suffer a bit for that, whereas before that line was crossed I'd have been happy to use a less violent measure to get the job done. If I got mugged on the other hand I'd have zero issues and little or no concern for the mugger's safety, not one of the sports I've played nor laws I've read about have dulled that fact. A sport can be a hefty, hefty piece of a martial art without diluting it in the slightest, it can also be the biggest drag downhill a martial art can suffer. I think that good organisation is the bigger point there, Judo is a sport, it was designed for the purpose of fitness and competition but it has retained it's status as a martial art because some schools teach it as a martial art. The same is true of Muay Thai, if your teacher teaches it as a martial art it is a martial art.
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KyKarateka
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Post by KyKarateka on Jun 10, 2013 0:07:51 GMT -5
KyKarateka, how is your Ne Waza focus in Judo? I studied Judo in two different schools for about a year in total, one was a very traditional club and the other a very sport focused one. Both had Ne Waza training, but now that I've dived into BJJ for the last 2 weeks I have to say I've ALREADY surpassed everything I learned on Ne Waza in Judo. Do you feel that your Ne Waza goes into good depth compared to most Judo schools? And have you considered testing it in some friendly rolling in a BJJ school or other Submission Wrestling gym of some sort? I actually started off with Jujitsu and transitioned to Judo when my instructor moved away. I learned quite a bit of ground work in Jujitsu but when I transitioned to Judo I still had the Ne Waza component but not nearly as much as I did Jujitsu. I still do quite a bit of Ne Waza but like you said it's not as in depth as some Brazilian Jujitsu schools go as it's not Judo's main focus. I believe we do go more into ground work than other schools but again it's still not as much as BJJ. I practice grappling a lot with the club members so it's a good supplement to my training as well as to train with different styles.
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Post by kokoro on Jun 10, 2013 7:35:44 GMT -5
odee its not about feeling pain, its about natural body reaction, the body has no chose but to react. even if its only for a split seconds which is all the time you need. there are ways to get the body to react even if the person cant feel pain,
even with rules or with , but most people wont do or think of, your in a specific mind set regardless of rules or not.
when your in a self defense situation, do you ever think of just slapping a person, most martial artist wont because its not in there mindset to. and yet its a very simple an effective move. as well as very insulting to a person, it sets the other person mentality off, because you just insulted him worse you demeaned him. you basically told him your not worth the time or every to be punching. what is more demeaning to a person a punch to the face or a bitch slap?
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odee
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Post by odee on Jun 10, 2013 17:22:51 GMT -5
People under the influence of Ice have proved otherwise, they'll dislocate their own shoulders trying to get cuffs off. Slapping will stop some fights, it will esculate others. Unless you can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that someone is beneath you with that slap you've just made things worse. I think you've just confused me on the last bit, what do you mean throwing with a wrist or elbow strike? You mean a throw-throw or a collapsing punch?
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