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Post by shurite99 on Jun 23, 2012 23:32:45 GMT -5
Wondering what people think about changing kata. I think anyone who has been practicing for even a few years would have to realize kata doesn't look the same as when it was first created.
When is it ok to change it? by whom? Have you witnessed it (maybe by the head of your organisation), and was it for the better or worse?
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Post by jwbulldogs on Jun 23, 2012 23:38:14 GMT -5
If the kata is changed you are no longer doing your style. When Dr. Kano modified what he was taught in jujutsu in became judo. He changed the name because it was different. Many parts were the same but still different. Many that were around during that time called Kano's Judo jujutsu for a long time. But eventually they accepted it as being unique or different even though it possessed many like attributes.
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Post by shurite99 on Jun 24, 2012 1:12:00 GMT -5
Well the Hanshi passed down some changes in some of the stances in pinan kata series whilst i've been practicing (4 years). Beats me why it was done, it didn't materially change the application so i wouldn't say it means im practicing a different style, but i do see your point.
Probably the two different versions of Chinto (shuri and tomari) represent this better. Should be able to see it on youtube somewhere. There's certainly some significant differences for a kata that came from a single source.
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Post by gunter on Jun 24, 2012 5:48:46 GMT -5
Didn't the founder of Shotokan just change the names of his kata from the Okinawan to Japanese? Aren't they more or less the same as in Shorin-ryu?
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Post by kokoro on Jun 24, 2012 6:02:11 GMT -5
kata is the manual to your style, changing movements is like rewriting the manual.
every movement has a purpose from the beginning to the end, even the opening movements has it purposes. we are not always taught what each movement means but its still there. changing means you are losing or changing the interpretation. but at the same time one of my kobujitus sensei when we asked about the stance in a kata, he stated its how we feel. there was no set stance. so were do you draw the line
there are acceptability in a style with kata variations, in shotokan i have learned as many as 6 different versions of the same kata
as for overall styles from one to the next again you have the same thing there are acceptable changes. chinto is a good examples as you stated but they were created by two different people, hence why they start the same and the similarity. but passai is also a good one, there are 15 different passai kata, you can see there different kata but you can also see they are passai. oddly enough the shotokan versions are the only ones that start with the right leg.
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Post by kokoro on Jun 24, 2012 6:03:20 GMT -5
@gunter he change the kata as well, maybe not at first but over time
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odee
Global Moderator
Kyokushin 10 years - Brazilian Jujitsu 3 years - Muay Thai 2 years.
Posts: 1,286
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Post by odee on Jun 24, 2012 7:32:22 GMT -5
Actually one of those changes really bothered me while I was learning Kanku in Kyokushin. It still bothers me actually because i never really got a proper answer to the grief. In Shotokan Kanku the first moves are greeting the morning sun. Bringing both hands together in front of the groin then raising them up to eye level with a diamond formed by the connected hands. The hands break apart and lower in shallow cresents back down to the groin. Possible Bunkai interpretation - Cover the groin from a knee or kick, raise your arms up inside your opponent's guard, hook his wrists and drag his arms down to a double elbow locking clinch. Kyokushin's variant is to start in front of the groin break apart and swing upwards in shallow cresents to eye level, pausing and swinging downwards in the shallow cresents. This struck me as odd because the only Bunkai I could come up with to match the movement was a double block against double cupped hands aiming for the ears. I keep getting the feeling that there's more to that little sequence because the Shotokan variation is remarkably general and can be used in many possible scenarios but the Kyokushin one seems very specialised and only seems to work in a limited number of applications. The thing that bugs me is what am I missing that Oyama would make such an obvious change to a kata that actually seems to limit the possible uses.
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Post by kokoro on Jun 24, 2012 7:45:36 GMT -5
odee, i'm heading to an all day work out, can you post a Kyokushin versions of the kata and ill take a look at it for you also keep in mind when Oyama was introduced to shotokan, this was the point the jka was removing the grappling aspect. so he may not have been exposed to that aspect of shotokan. when im looking at bunkai i look at various version of the kata as well as the history of who created it, and what kind of fighter he was, now a days we have a lot more info then in the past.
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odee
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Kyokushin 10 years - Brazilian Jujitsu 3 years - Muay Thai 2 years.
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Post by odee on Jun 24, 2012 18:19:15 GMT -5
-Kyokushin
-Shotokan
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Post by kokoro on Jun 24, 2012 20:15:20 GMT -5
i need a few days to try some of the techniques with my partner, i can think of a few, i just want to make sure they work
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Post by Possum on Jun 24, 2012 20:36:25 GMT -5
I am from Taekwondo - predominantly WTF. Our forms are not that old; in fact, our current forms replaced an older set of forms and neither set are very old.
When something - like a house - is not very old, then some settling must occur. Over the years, our forms have morphed in a few ways, but not overtly so: our stances are MUCH more narrow and condensed than when they were born.
Do I change the forms? Yes - absolutely: I don't narrow or condense my stances! Why? because the reason Kukkiwon gives for narrowing/condesning is to support their preference for agility: speed. However, I prefer to focus more on power, relying on fewer techniques to "end the job". Kukkiwon would seem to have you dancing around before finishing the job.
As to forms being the key to the style, I don't think that applies at all to WTF taekwondo. Only a single form contains a roundhouse kick. Odd, that's the most commonly thrown kick in sparring. Jumping back kick? Spinning kick? Hook kick? More sparring favorites, but not in a single form.
What about the reverse? Low block, high block, inside and outside block, knifehand block? No one uses these in full-contact sparring - you're better off evading or countering, not absorbing with a block. Throat strike (koryo)? Palm heel to chin (keumgang)? Wrist release (taebaek)? Elbow (taeguek 5)? Backfist, hammer fist, or knee (taeguek 7)? Nope. Not in sparring! What about multiple opponent techniques, like a mountain block (taeguek 8, keumgang) or back kick (pyong won)? No - multiple opponents in sparring doesn't exist.
Sorry, but in WTF taekwondo, you can modify the forms and I doubt you could do it and be any further from the style than it already is. Just don't try to do it in a competition.
Sure, forms are a relic of a time when sport wasn't the goal. Nowadays, WTF forms are like an appendix. There their, but many people blissfully have absolutely no idea why.
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Post by jwbulldogs on Jun 24, 2012 21:28:01 GMT -5
I'm interested in seeing what the applications can be. When I see the first move 2 hand going towards the sky I'm thinking of of joint lock with 2 hand hand grabbing the wrist "loosely" and locking the elbow over the shoulder. There is a reason why the grip is a loose grip.. The 2 hands by the groins could be a knee strike, but I'm not so sure on that. Possum with WTF changing their forms who knows if there are suppose to be applications like bunkai in them? It's possible that there aren't hidden application in them. But I don't know. Kind of like when I look at musical kata or creative kata I get disappointed often. The people enjoy them so in a since its a good thing, but it is not really teaching self defense. They are just putting on a show. I spent an entire day at a tournament for the first time in probably over ten years. I refused to judge any kata. Seeing someone spin a kama on a finger like a basketball is entertaining, but it is not self defense. Watching someone throw their bo in the air and catching it behind the back is not self defense. The different dojo got excited and so did the crowd. I felt out of place. I know if I asked any of them what was that technique or the purpose of that technique no one could tell me. Please tell me what was a strike and the target and what is a disarming technique. it's sad in my opinion.
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Post by Possum on Jun 25, 2012 16:00:01 GMT -5
jwbulldogs, There are many conspiracy theories on how the Taeguek forms for WTF got started. The people who invented them are still alive, though I don't have access to them. The conspiracy theories (there are a couple) all support the Koreanization of TKD, which up until then shadowed under Shotokan. As a result, for example, we've narrowed our stances. Kukkiwon says because it allowed for faster movement. Others claim this is typical for Chinses styles to do this. Others say that Kukkiwon just wanted something similar (ie, keep the forms) but just change it around a bit so it won't look like so much of a copy. And there are a few others. As a result, you would be hard pressed to make a comprehensible application for a few techniques across our forms. It's not that it's impossible, but either the techniques assume a more advanced grappling concept than would be required for the level the practitioner is at (I wish I had examples off-hand, but I don't), or it was just thrown in there because it "looked good" (another way of saying, "I have no idea why we do it this way"). I'm not sure I buy either argument. But most people seem to agree that any semblance of bunhae (Japanese: bunkai) was done after the forms were invented - an after-thought. The theory that the TKD founders having little exposure and not being within the inner circle of their Japanese instructors during the Occupation certainly explains this well. Having said that, the forms do have meanings behind them (heaven, earth, sun, wind, fire, etc) and these meanings more illustrate the character of the taekwondoin. This is a remarkable breakaway from Japanese philosophy on forms. As it happens, many of us in Taekwondo misunderstand this concept too, like "perform taeguek 2 with the greatness of heaven". Yeah, like a yellow belt is going to perform anything with the greatness of anything greater than a grapefruit! Nevertheless, I endeavor to find those instructors (even outside of Taekwondo) who are serious about application. Even if the application is an after-thought, I think it's better than nothing. As to musical forms, I don't really like them at all either. I am the typical gawky, rhythmless dweeb who can't dance to a beat. However, I do find that music can be a training aid. More often than not, I've found myself tensing at moments I shouldn't be, and the music helped me re-think that. To me, then, musical forms are a very limited, but occasionally useful, training tool. The forms, then, aren't meant to supply self-defense or application theory; rather, they are built around breathing, relaxation, timing, tempo, and rhythm development. I could probably do all of this doing my regular forms, but as long as I'm a guest in the school that does them, I suck it up and do them without complaining. :-( On the bright side, our forms are done to completely classical music. To me that means the music shouldn't overpower the form like what happens so often during tournaments with the XMA crowd - the same kids with the twirly bo, sai, and swords, etc.
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Post by kokoro on Jun 27, 2012 9:38:31 GMT -5
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aaronj
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Yondan - Shurite Karate Jitsu, Chen Taijiquan
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Post by aaronj on Jun 27, 2012 23:06:48 GMT -5
@ gunter - Funakoshi Sensei brought his original training to Japan when he transferred to teach academics. With the disseminating of his training and the standardization of the Japanese culture, there were many changes.
@ Odee - Oyama Sensei is known to have dropped all 'useless crap' from his earlier martial arts training as he couldn't make them work in his actual fighting. A bit like Bruce Lee, a phenomenal martial artist, who just didn't get enough exposure to the principles in their systems before making changes and stepping out on their own.
@ the introductory bunkai - We adjust the two arms moving skyward, a few degrees out-forward instead of up. Generally, it's with an advance or retreat as the attacking 'punch' is coming in with a simultaneous block of the punching hand, and a neck strike with the free forearm/elbow. Jokingly we call that the magic window
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