odee
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Post by odee on Jun 24, 2012 4:06:58 GMT -5
I see this quite a bit on this forum and a few others but people seem to forget that well trained martial artists are not and should not be similar to your average guy on the street, nor should they be compared to them.
I see a lot of "Traditionalists" blaming the rules for their inability to beat other trained martial artists and that's wrong. They lose because they're trying to apply techniques that require a massive skill difference when that difference simply does not exist between them and another martial artist.
The same is true for a lot of competitive martial artists but mostly for their fans who seem to believe that if something doesn't work in the arena of choice it doesn't work at all. That's not a martial artist facing an aggressor, that's two trained fighters duking it out. Like I said before there is very little if any skill difference to work with. The chances of a martial artist picking a fight in the street is minimal, the chances of them picking a fight with another martial artist is even more minimal.
With all the training that we do to toughen ourselves, increase our flexibility, endurance, technical ability, agility and increase our fighting experience and fighting potential why don't we realise that facing another martial artist is not going to be like facing a football player or the school bully?
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Post by friendlyvirus on Jun 24, 2012 13:15:35 GMT -5
the thing is that thugs have their street fighting skills, also not all the MArtist have the skill level of the pros, so a common martial artist vs a street hardened thug, could be quite similar.
maybe i am wrong.
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odee
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Post by odee on Jun 24, 2012 18:39:40 GMT -5
That's why the title said Fighters are NOT normal.
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Post by jwbulldogs on Jun 28, 2012 3:14:39 GMT -5
Fighter are not normal and neither are martial artist. You can't be normal and willingly subject yourself to the different things that we put ourselves through in order to learn and training. It is not normal to do things that you know you are going to get a busted nose, lip, or bruises. It is not normal to know you are going to get hit in the groins and you sign up for it.
I know that is not where you were going with this, but I thought I would add this.
You are correct. The chance of you having to defend yourself or getting into a fight with a trained fight is very slim. Hover, rules of engagement will and does matter. If your training says attack a joint but the rules says you can only hit a muscle. You have to be conscience of the rules and do things that are not natural for you because of your training.
Example: I was training in an Aikido dojo. In aikido after you complete a throw you are supposed to use some joint lock to restrain the attacker. In my training we use these types of restraints too, but we will add some strikes, breaks, stomps, etc along with the pin or restraint. After I threw the guy in class I did the kick or stomp to the head or neck then put that guy in a vulnerable position to finish the job, but the sensei scolded me for the kick. That is not part of aikido. But this was natural for me. I didn't have to think to do it. Also if Example2: In judo and you are going for a choke, pin, or joint lock if you do not have it locked in or a submission in about 30 seconds the referee will briefly stop the contest and have you both stand up in order for you to continue the fight. But in BJJ you can wait all day for you opponent to give you something that you can use to submit them.
Example 3: I went to a tournament this past weekend. The rule were groin strikes are allowed. Most tournament do not allow groin contact and the ones that do usually is is only for black belts. They also allowed you to grab your opponent and strike them. But you had to release the grip before you strike. It also allowed for a throw or sweep, but you have to immediately follow up with a scoring strike. Most tournaments do not allow this. If you fall you cant be hit in most tournaments. The people that did best in that tournament practices for those set of rules. Those that didn't prepared themselves for fighting under more common rules.The better fighter didn't win in every case, but the ones that had a better understanding of the rules were winning.
Training for self defense is much different than training for a competition. In self defense you train to spit in the person face, bite, pinch, scratch, kick to the groins, kick to the knees, etc. But training for sport depending of the rules you can or can't kick the legs. But you do not kick the knee joints. You do not use and eye gouge. You do not pull hair, bite, etc.
The biggest argument that I have seen is well they both are fighting under the same rules so that shouldn't be a problem. That sound good, but if you train for judo, but you are fighting under the queensbury rules you are at a great disadvantage against a boxer.
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odee
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Post by odee on Jun 28, 2012 9:37:31 GMT -5
It is a bit of a tangent but that's fair enough. I have a different view on rules to yours. In my opinion if you're a Judoka and you lose to a Boxer in Queensbury rules you've lost because you don't have the punching ability required to be competitive. The same applies to the Boxer competing under Judo rules, he didn't lose because of the rules he lost because he didn't have the ability required for that situation. The nut kick is a good example of the rules not really mattering. Say you wound up in a fight with a guy who'd just been playing Gridiron or Cricket and was still wearing his pads...he grabbed your girl's ass on his way to the sheds. Would you stop and whine because he's wearing a cup and groin shots don't drop him or would you change tact and adapt? It's the same with rules. Rules are just the situation, adapt to it.
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Post by jwbulldogs on Jun 30, 2012 1:15:05 GMT -5
It's okay to think different than I do. I don't expect someone to drop because of a groin shot. Therefore that is not likely going to be my primary target. Additionally, you can wear a cup and still be put in a lot of pain with a groin shot. Been there done that, got the T-Shirt and the hat.
A guy sexually assaulting my wife I don;t have to worry about any rules or limitation. I don't have to think or know that no groin strikes are allowed. I don't have to worry about no small joint manipulations.. It is open game. I hope he has on a helmet. I'd use that to control him. I know how easy it is to control a person when grabbing their facemask because I played ball. If he is close enough to sexually assault my wife he is close enough for her to use the pepper spray I got her. He is close enough to use her stun gun. My only decision would be does this warrant deadly force? If attempted to fight her because he just gt sprayed I'd shoot him. I won't take a chance on him hurting her or possible killing her. I'd take my chances in court. I'm not competing. I'm defending the life of a member of my family. If I'm not carrying I wouldn't hesitate to do whatever necessary to end the threat. I'm not going to box him and trade punches.
Having groin strike in tournament matter because the rules of the game has changed. Now you have to do something that you are used to doing when you train. You have to guard your family jewels. The guy that has trained for tkd tournaments don't train to protect for groin strikes in tournament. Guys form shorin ryu will have one hand low protecting to jewels. The strategy changes. As soon as the tkd attempts a head kick he has been kicked in the groins. The tkd person is expecting a point to be taken away instead of a point being scored.
As a rule you do not fight another person's fight. You don't box a boxer. That is his strength. Don't wrestle a wrestler. You must fight your type of fight. Make them adjust. You don't attempt to beat them at their game.
"In my opinion if you're a Judoka and you lose to a Boxer in Queensbury rules you've lost because you don't have the punching ability required to be competitive. The same applies to the Boxer competing under Judo rules, he didn't lose because of the rules he lost because he didn't have the ability required for that situation." What created the situation? The rules. You change the rules you change the game.
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odee
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Post by odee on Jun 30, 2012 2:11:51 GMT -5
That's blaming the rules. It doesn't matter if the rules created the situation, that IS the situation. Deal with it and adapt to it, when you're not blaming the rules you can even exploit them.
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Post by judomofo on Jul 9, 2012 14:12:53 GMT -5
You actually brought up something as a natural tendency and didn't even think about it...
"In Aikido, I did this and this and stomped, but instructor was mad..."
So do you think that would change how you react instinctively? You reacted instinctively.. in a Judo match I have to ensure I don't lose my cool and punch a guy in the face, or spike him on his head...
However, that doesn't change the fact that I have those things instinctively, the simple fact I have to maintain a control and improvise technique in a given rule set helps me that much more when I am not limited by rule set.
Magical Secret: It takes no special training to kick/grab/punch nuts, it takes no special training to gouge eyes... ANYONE can do it... furthermore it is instinctive reaction! I have seen people with no training what so every flail at eyes, and kick balls.
This is of course assuming that you are saying having to train in, or compete in under a rule set damages you self defense wise. Something I disagree with.
Given the fact I can take someone skilled at stopping me from lifting them, attack them with a technique they readily know the defense to, but are unable to, and slam them on the back of their head...(which is totally legal), what do you think will happen when I grab a guy on the street in a true fight or flight situation...do you think I am going to give him the same sort of landing?
Does having to obey a rule set automatically mean I am limited or somehow instinctively set to only follow that rule set?
That is like saying if you took Kobe Bryant, or the average NBA player and put them in a game of street ball, that they would some how suck because they are used to playing by NBA rules.
Also, I have broken fingers and toes, bones in my hands, in fights without the slightest bit of it hampering me. The small joint manipulation argument really is moot, it is great for pain compliance when you already have control of a person, not something I would warrant going for other than a control factor. Breaking my finger, hand, or even wrist doesn't remove my ability to use my fist as a weapon.
Breaking an elbow or knee joint does, it doesn't mean the fight is over, I have seen plenty of guys fight with broken arms, I have seen guys play a whole game with a dislocated patella, or with severe ligament strains and trama. However, it does limits the effectiveness of that appendage from damaging me.
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Post by jwbulldogs on Jul 9, 2012 15:45:23 GMT -5
When I was competing in judo I never once that I recall ever thought of or had t restrain myself from striking them. I was there to win a competition and I knew the rules of that competition. I trained for those specific set of rules. However, in the aikido class the mindset is self defense. They made the attack real. I responded the way that I had been trained for years to do. If I didn't move I'd get hit.
In our dojo we teach if you don't get move you get hit. We teach make the attack real. We teach make the choke real. If you can;t get out of a choke here you will die out there. Everything has to become instinctive. We have surprised attacks in our dojo. However, when I'm working out with some bjj guys I have to remind myself and limit what I would do because I;m using there rules. My intent is not to escape by any means necessary. People often mention the eye gouge. It does not end most fights. I can't say that it would end any fight. That is not the purpose of an eye gouge. The eye gouge is a distraction it can be anywhere from irritating to painful. It allows the person that is being attack a split second to do something that can save their life. A bjj guy and even some judoka will go for a cross grab. If this were self defense I would respond differently than I would working out in the dojo. In self defense I might spit in his face to get him to wipe without thinking. I might go for an eye gouge and give myself enough room to escape. I might go for a small joint not to break the joint only for pain compliance. The threat of breaking it is greater than breaking it. If you break it there is no more threat the fight can continue. But the threat is more valuable in that case. Again you are very close if you can grab me. There is so much more that I can and would do that I wouldn't if we are just roling in the dojo. I have a different agenda and mindset. What I want to accomplish is different. Even in the dojo when working on cert escape. etc we teach these technique are what you do for the uncle that comes over and says I hear you are doing that karate kung fu stuff. What would you do to get out of this. But we also teach this is what you do if you got attacked on the street, bar, etc. They all work, but one is more polite. The other is there to cause pain, injury or more.
When I'm rolling in the bjj setting I know its one on one. But in our dojo we we never know how many attacker there are going to be or from what direction the attack is going to come.
Which all leads to my statement that we that train in martial arts whether it is for self defense or for sport are not normal. It is not normal to go through what we put our bodies through willingly. The average normal person would not submit to such things. and find enjoyment in doing so.
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odee
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Post by odee on Jul 9, 2012 18:10:43 GMT -5
Oh thank you JW! Next time I wind up in hospital with concussion I'm sure I'll recover faster now that I know my opponent's intentions weren't the same as they would be on the street. He didn't mean to knock me the fuck out it just kind of happened and I'm sure I'll never tap out again knowing that my opponents don't actually intend to dislocate my joints - They're only threatening to. It'll hurt so much less.
But that's kind of what I'm going on about with the whole not normal thing.
Pain techniques like eye gouges, fish hooking and nut grabs are not going to make a hell of a difference if your opponent is skilled enough to put you down under rules and determined to keep doing what he's doing in spite of pain, he's not just going to jerk and let go when you poke his eyes or twist his finger off. I've seen it happen hundereds of times in rugby union rucks. People will use small joint manipulation and break fingers to get their opponents to let go of the ball, it usually doesn't work. Yes the player's finger is broken, that much worked but he still has the ball, broken fingers were not enough to make him let go. Personally I never pried fingers to get the ball off other players in a one on one strip. I punched the thing out of their hands and the simple fact was their toughness had nothing to do with the results, people just don't have the actual strength to hang on to the thing under that kind of removal. It's the same in sports like MMA, Kickboxing and BJJ. If he's managed to tap you out, knock you out or choke you out there probably wouldn't be a hell of a lot you could do to stop him when the rules aren't there. I got knocked out by a Boxer once. Three hits and I didn't manage to land a single blow in reply. I don't believe I could have beat him if I was allowed to kick his legs, knees or nuts. Nor do I believe the legality of throws, takedowns or submissions would have made a hell of a difference. Why? Cause I didn't manage to land jack shit on him anyway. I faced a Kung Fu student in knockdown Kyokushin Karate, the match only lasted a few seconds, he punched, I blocked and knocked him down with a front kick, as he went backwards he turned his hand and raked me across the face, left some nice tiger claw cuts that bled profusely. The Referee stepped in, disqualified him and blood binned me. That match I believe could have gone either way on the street. It would be a question of was he winded enough that I could catch him on the ground and put him away before I got blood blinded in one eye.
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Post by jwbulldogs on Jul 10, 2012 1:40:03 GMT -5
You should thank me Odee. Because if I'm on the streets it is not my intentions to just knock you out. If I'm going to fight it is because I think my life or someone else life is in danger. I no longer got int o those fights about ego. I have a family to think about. My intention is to make sure you are no longer a threat. You won't be able to see me in the dojo when you drive by and come back with you gun and catch me expectantly. When I participated in sports I showed good sportsmanship. I believe that most athletes will do the same. Sure there are those that bend or break the rules, but the goal of any sports competition is to win. I don't care about winning. I only care about being able to survive and return to my family. I'll do whatever it takes to makes sure we are all safe. Having competed I know the difference.
I cant talk about rugby. I have never played it or learned much about it.
As far as the kung fu guy I don't know if it were intentional or not. it might have been, but on the streets no ref is there to stop it. Enough blood in your eyes will make it difficult to see. You are sweating the blood flow even more freely.
Posting a video of guy competing with glove on mean nothing. Most people do not walk around with these gloves on. Having on the gloves limit what you can do and what can be done.
I guess you are reading. The eye poke is not get them to let go. It helps to capture their mind. It is a mild distraction. That is all you need to take a persons balance or breath.
Why boxer a boxer if you aren't a boxer? Even the great Gracies should have taught you that. They would never trade blows with a boxer. They would take a boxer to the ground. That took away the boxers strength and increase the Gracie probability of winning.
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odee
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Post by odee on Jul 10, 2012 2:07:08 GMT -5
Honestly I don't know if it was intentional or not, nor do I care, all I know is I'd like to have been allowed to finish that fight to see how it would have panned out.
Yeah they had gloves on, the gloves didn't stop Gordeau from eye gouging Yuki and the eye gouges didn't stop the Yuki from twisting the crap out of Gordeau's ankle is my point. Didn't even slow him down until after the match.
Why box a Boxer? Because I was in a Boxing match and like I said I can't honestly say I boxed him, I got knocked the f**k out is what I did. Why was I in a Boxing match? Because I wanted to find out exactly how well my hand skills stacked up. The great Gracies can say what they want, the great Oyama said there is no sweeter victory than beating people under their own rules - Didn't turn out so hot for me on that occassion but I didn't let that stop me. I improved my boxing ability and competed in three more matches for two points decisions and a knockout victory. I'm a better fighter for that, if I can't kick for any reason I know that I can work with just my fists. Why do I bother with pure grappling when I know I have no talent for it? Because I'm a better fighter for forcing myself through it to improve on it, I know that eventually I'll be able to work submissions on the ground if I can't strike for any reason.
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Post by jwbulldogs on Jul 10, 2012 2:48:20 GMT -5
LOL I know what you mean. The boxer comment is not necessarily meant for you personally. It is more about me. I'm not a boxer. Why would I compete in a boxing match under the rules of boxing? I only boxed for a few months. I won't win many of those. Remove the rules and its fair ground. Well I don't know if it is fair, but my chances are much better. I don't care what Oyama said about victory. There is no sweeter victory than seeing my family is safe every night. I won't submit to fight your fight. I must do what I do well.
Keep at Odee who knows you may bet a chance at him again and you'll be better prepared.
I recall in high school when I was young and dumb. This guy and I got into it verbally in gym class. I was on crutches. I had a broken toe from judo. Well he said something about me not being able to use that karate stuff because I was on crutches. I said some things back. I wasn't upset. To me it was like playing the dozens, just words. But he put his hands on me and I snapped. I slammed him against the lockers(distraction). I knew I couldn't stand and trade punches standing on one leg with crutches under my arms. So I lifted my arm enough for the crutches to drop. Then slammed him on ground to make the fight better for me. I think I would have lost standing on one leg fighting a 6 foot guy me being about 4'11 at the time about 95lbs. I was on top choking him and slamming his head on that concrete floor before everyone grabbed me to pull me off. I would release his throat. They were pulling me while I was still dragging him. I could only hold on so long and had to yield to gravity. After thy got me far enough away they put me down and gave me back my crutches and forced me out of the locker room. Today, I'm glad they stopped me, but had no one intervened I would have killed him. My sesnsei taught us to never leave a person where they can come back and get you later. I meant to do just that. The gym teacher came out and saw the other student keeping me from coming back into the locker room and began to ask what was going on. I stopped and limped away saying nothing is going on. I walked to my next class. I knew this wasn't over. I expected that he and some of his friends were going to try to jump me. That's how things were done in our school. I got a msg from a guy in mu homeroom from a guy that I didn't know he knew the guy. I didn't know everyone as I didn't live in that district. Our school was large made up of several communities and each community segregated themselves for the most part. The msg was that he wanted to squash that stuff from earlier. I didn't believe it. I was still looking for him and others to try to jump me. I don't care how many times you say it will be a fair fight one on one 4 or more guys would jump in. But we never fought again. I wasn't worried about fighting him or his friends, But I was worried since I didn't know who his friends were so I would know who to watch out for. I don't remember seeing this guy in my gym class anymore. I don't know if he transferred classes or schools. But it didn't stop me from watching my back. It also was the beginning of building my rep.
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Chef Samurai
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Post by Chef Samurai on Jul 10, 2012 3:57:23 GMT -5
wow that was a great way of putting it jw I couldn't agree more with you thats just how it is and I would rather hit & run rather than stay & fight to the death myself because I've been stabbed before I know it's much different on the street than in the ring/cage becuase there are just too damn many variables and If I didn't try & clinch and knee the guy who stabbed me like I learned in mt I never would have got stabbed if I would just have stabbed him first because I didn't get stabbed until after a few knees so if it were a few of my own stabs instead it would have gone much better in my favour & many tmas teach weapons.
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odee
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Post by odee on Jul 10, 2012 4:02:02 GMT -5
I never got a rep. I only ever got into one fight at each school I went to. One in primary school, one in each high school. Just enough to slip by under the radar. Got into a heap on the football fields but since the whole team were kind of busy fighting their own fights they slipped under the radar with me.
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