talon
Yellow Belt
Posts: 65
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Post by talon on Jun 25, 2012 0:33:07 GMT -5
I have had so many people tell me one thing or another re this subject But the question is "Did BLOCKS actually start out as blocks or were they originally STRIKES that were modified into blocks!?" Nobody as yet has given me definitive historical proof either way. What is your opinion or do you have proof!?
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Chef Samurai
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Canadian Catch Wrestling
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Post by Chef Samurai on Jun 25, 2012 1:22:05 GMT -5
Blocking means putting something in the way to stop it like a road block set up by police and can't be a strike because it's stationary and a strike needs movement to crash or it's not a strike. Parrying is intercepting another strike with a strike of your own and is probably what your talking about. The problem about your question is martial arts existed before writing so we don't have documented evidence from when the 1st people ever fought all we have is written documentation from 4,500 bc to now which is only 6,512 years out of 400,000+ years and is like 1%. So judging the whole of something based on 1% is just asinine and I see why you don't get good responses. My proof is writing was invented sometime between the sumerian & egyptian kingdoms and people have been fighting each other since the beginning of time noted by wounds consistent with weapons and weapons are used by warriors who created martial arts for war when they lost their weapons and there are many weapons styles. Look what a block is then why historically we can only go as far back as writing exists and then look closely at your question again. I hope I gave you some closure. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outline_of_historyen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evolutionwww.thefreedictionary.com/Parry
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talon
Yellow Belt
Posts: 65
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Post by talon on Jun 25, 2012 3:55:54 GMT -5
To a certain extent CS, but what I meant more in depth is not the definition between a block & a strike, more the type of movement they have or adaptations/evolution. For example an "an inside fist block" in one style is used as a "hammer fist strike" in another, or "a head block" used when risen from a lower position, is used as a "forearm strike" to the throat/jaw, or a "side block" to a "fist strike" to the groin etc ... Or where they strikes first then blocks, if you see where I'm going with this...?! It's kind of which came first {you know the old chicken & egg thing} But your answer is very informative {I think } thank you, though not quite the line my thoughts & the talks with others took, or where I was trying to go in.
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Post by Possum on Jun 25, 2012 8:31:15 GMT -5
I have no proof, but I do have an opinion, which tends to differ from others.
Blocks are just that: they are meant to absorb an incoming strike.
Parries are like blocks, except they redirect.
Blocks require strength, and can act as strikes. I define them as "strike strikes" - like breaking the bone of an incoming strike. The problem with blocks is that they require strength, but sometimes, that's all you've got. Maybe, you can't move out of the way, maybe you're too tired to move so quickly. For me, my brain sees the strike, but can't muster up the rest of the body, so my instinct is to throw up a block.
Blocks can also interrupt an incoming strike. Here, the block need not absorb the full impact of the strike, because the strike is immature: it hasn't gained its full velocity. The block can still be a strike/break, and the benefit here is that the opponent is probably off-balance and that gives you a tactical advantage.
When a person's strike is blocked, there should be an immediate feeling of "me vs you". That will change either or both people's intent - usually pulling back. When you block a strike, the person striking you will instinctively hold back or apply more force. A followup on your part could be more difficuly.
But when a parry is used, the person's strike isn't stopped and the striker is left wondering things like "what just happened to me", or "where is he", or "did I do any damage". In other words, a successful parry can keep the opponent guessing about what just happened. That is a tactical advantage to you, in part because you expended almost no energy, and also, because your opponent is probably off balance or otherwise opened up for a followup strike.
So blocks, strikes, and parries often have overlapping features: was a technique a block or a strike? Depends on the result. Maybe it was both. I think it's more important to establish intent and later worry about what was the thing called.
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Post by kokoro on Jun 25, 2012 9:55:53 GMT -5
**** Going by the terminology for Japanese and Okinawan martial arts. ****
the word uke does Not mean block it means to receive. which can mean any number of things. from a parry, trap, lock, etc. It was ms-translated as the word block. Which came first in history i cant say. I'm only go by terminology, and not by history. Its like which came first the chicken or the egg.
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Chef Samurai
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Canadian Catch Wrestling
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Post by Chef Samurai on Jun 25, 2012 15:40:01 GMT -5
talon- it probably happened differently all over the world at different points when someone had tried to parry a punch and clocked their aggressor instead or was string to hit their attacker & managed to hot their arm instead and wither they passed on is unknowns and maybe someone had to figure it out again but remember every time you mix vinegar & baking soda you will get the same reaction and we only have so many things we can do with our bodys & how we can move them and doing what another style does isn't that far fetched considering. so historically what happened in boxing is unrelated to what happened to karate until the 20th century when people started doing both just like lots of styles.
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Post by jwbulldogs on Jun 25, 2012 18:35:46 GMT -5
This is what I have gathered from my research. In karate there are no blocks. Like Kokoro said the term Uke which most people call a block does not mean block. It means to receive. Martial arts weren't initially meant for children. It was for adults. It was inevitable that they would teach children too. They began to teach children kata. In the kata you teach it has a rising block or chest block or a leg block. But in reality these thing that are being called a block or not blocking they are striking, choking, throwing, etc. This way you can teach a child karate without teaching them vital strikes or anything considered lethal or that would maim or kill.
In karate since there are no blocks how do you prevent yourself from being hit? The first step is tai sabaki (you move out of the way). You don't run from the attack you just position yourself right outside or inside of the attack. The other thing you do is to redirect the strike. Some call this a parry or intercepting the strike. You also learn to jam the strike. You put the person that is attacking in a position where their vital areas are exposed and they can't defend themselves from your strikes. You have momentary control of their body.
Look at what you are taught is a leg block. How many times have you used this to block a kick? How many times have you seen anyone block a kick like that? You don't. But as you learn the bunkai you will find that one application for that is they attempt to hit you. You move and redirect the strike with the opposite hand. Then using your hips to generate power you do a hammer fist type strike to the lower ribs.
This is the first technique in Matsubayashi Ryu first kata. Fukyugata Ichi
No one does the kata and shows the parry or redirection. It is there, but only implied or some would say it is hidden.
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aaronj
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Yondan - Shurite Karate Jitsu, Chen Taijiquan
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Post by aaronj on Jun 27, 2012 23:54:54 GMT -5
There was never a set technique, but in cataloging/memorizing it's easier to say this does this.
Traditionally, and I'm talking about the days of Itosu being traditional, they did not teach kata first. They taught each movement and concept until the student got it down. These movements were applied against numerous attacks, which ensured that the concept was understood, instead of the cataloging that have today which is actually detrimental to the art and the student's ability to actually employ what they should be.
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odee
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Kyokushin 10 years - Brazilian Jujitsu 3 years - Muay Thai 2 years.
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Post by odee on Jul 8, 2012 7:31:06 GMT -5
My weak Karate works fine.
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Post by gunter on Jul 8, 2012 7:33:06 GMT -5
LOL I was just joking, my mate is a Shotokan brown belt and he is fierce
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Post by youxia on Jul 11, 2012 7:43:02 GMT -5
From Lam Sai Wing's Tiger Crane book Attachments:
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aaronj
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Yondan - Shurite Karate Jitsu, Chen Taijiquan
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Post by aaronj on Jul 16, 2012 14:53:00 GMT -5
odee, if it works is it really weak?? What should be one of the biggest clues into what a movement is (in terms of block/strike) is the time. When in a fight, once the connection is made, there is no time for blocking then striking. There is only the chance for 'blocking' and striking in one instance. This is why concepts are so very important in martial arts. The concepts are what needs to be engrained, because the concept leads the reaction, which designs the position, which results in the attack/defense.
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