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Post by Glutton4Punishment on Jun 25, 2012 17:45:28 GMT -5
There are a lot of stupid arguments used in martial arts discussion to try to justify things that just can't be justified. Most of these stupid arguments are really just textbook examples of logical fallacies.
"You didn't learn how to fight using X style? You must have been training in a McDojo!"
This one is known as the Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc Logical Fallacy. It is to say, simply, that "X was the RESULT, therefore Y MUST have been the cause!" It is NOT A VALID ARGUMENT.
And how about the Ad Hominem fallacy? "Hey, Glutton never liked X style to begin with, he's too biased to even listen to!" A good sign of a weak debater is an attack on the person behind the argument rather than the argument itself.
Another big one is Argument From Authority. "My Sifu said this, and he's done the art for X number of years, there's no way he can be wrong no matter how much information you have to the contrary!"
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odee
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Post by odee on Jun 25, 2012 17:54:05 GMT -5
My personal favorite is "The rules stopped me from winning!" Horse-shit. Your inability to adapt to the rules stopped you from winning. The other one is "Why would I step into a ring with one hand tied behind my back?" There's plenty of others who have managed it, does your incompetence make you feel special?
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Chef Samurai
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Post by Chef Samurai on Jun 25, 2012 18:18:10 GMT -5
my favourite is how people don't understand variables and think a wrestler can beat a boxer in a boxing match lol
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odee
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Post by odee on Jun 25, 2012 18:33:02 GMT -5
That's because the wrestlers hands aren't as fast as the boxer's. Same when a boxer fails to beat a wrestler in a wrestling match, the boxer's wrestling ability isn't as good as the wrestlers. First time I did kickboxing I struggled because that particular organization didn't allow knees and one of my main methods of distance control was the knees, I blamed the rules and my teacher got up me. If that was all that stopped me winning I should have adapted and kicked my opponent away instead of wishing I could knee him. So I worked on my front kicks, working them closer to my body, pushing, striking and double-kicking. Took another couple of matches and did far better because I'd adapted to the rules rather than blaming them. Got to face my first opponent the next year and had him on the mat before the end of the second round. Being able to adapt to different rules is just like adapting to different situations on the street.
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Chef Samurai
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Post by Chef Samurai on Jun 25, 2012 18:54:58 GMT -5
Being able to adapt to different rules is just like adapting to different situations on the street. BINGO! and that's the part comes down to the practitioner and how smart they are and how well they were taught to begin with and a few other variables but people like glutton don't believe in and the style is either crap or good there is no human element which is so funny lol and whats to stop a wrestler from training their hands to be as fast as a boxers other than their own willingness to do s especially since since they used to be the same style? my experience with judo was bad & I thought it sucked because my dojo was really crappy & we couldn't even full out throw someone hard. I could have went on thinking judo was garbage but I finally found a good school that taught me judo had strikes and tons of submissions like leg locks and neck cranks too. Just like my wing chun teacher was an amazing grappler and even with all my wrestling & judo experience I couldn't take him down or throw him and I wondered why. Then he taught me that it's a science and needs to be pressure tested because that's the scientific method and he never took anything other than wc but he always trained his style against people from other styles because traditionally soldiers fought other nations who knew different styles instead of themselves and he figured a chunner gets best at fighting chunners from fighting other chunners and a chunner gets good at fighting boxers by fighting boxers etc. it's a pretty simple concept that few realize and they think every wing chun is traditional because they wear uniforms and crap but the true traditionalists are the ones who follow history.
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Post by Glutton4Punishment on Jun 25, 2012 19:17:17 GMT -5
Nobody ever said a wrestler could out box a boxer, chef. That's another logical fallacy you employed known as The Straw Man Argument. That's taking what somebody says and twisting it into a similar yet extremely ridiculous statement that's easier to argue against.
I've used that one before, but I use it much more effectively.
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odee
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Post by odee on Jun 25, 2012 19:17:47 GMT -5
Your Chun teacher sounds just like my Kyokushin teacher.
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Chef Samurai
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Post by Chef Samurai on Jun 25, 2012 19:26:12 GMT -5
Nobody ever said a wrestler could out box a boxer, chef. That's another logical fallacy you employed known as The Straw Man Argument. That's taking what somebody says and twisting it into a similar yet extremely ridiculous statement that's easier to argue against. I've used that one before, but I use it much more effectively. I can tell your used to making the straw man arguement lol so your saying someone who trains to fight on the street under no rules will always lose to someone who trains under a certain set of rules in a street fight and under whatever rules the other person trains in because styles meant for self defence suck for everything including competing and self defence... but someone who trains to fight under boxing rules can't beat someone who trains to fight under wrestling rules in a wrestling match but would in a boxing match but who would win on the street? the batter trained fighter or the boxer or the wrestler because ones style is better?. that's more the straw man argument on your behalf not mine I'm trying to argue against that your the one saying variables don't matter but they do. there is always a human element and humans are likely to make mistakes but not according to you. odee- your kyokushin teacher sounds like a smart man.
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Post by Glutton4Punishment on Jun 25, 2012 19:32:26 GMT -5
When the hell did I say variables don't matter? And when the hell did I say that somebody who trains for a rule set will always beat somebody who trains for self defense? The problem is that people say they train in self defense, but they don't. They train with the same rules as somebody training for the ring because they aren't kicking each other in the nuts, they aren't gouging each others eyes out, and in many cases they aren't even sparring at all because their techniques are "too deadly". That's not training for self defense. Full contact training is training for self defense. It can also be training for a sport. But the rules are exactly why Chunners say they can't be effective in the ring. "We train for the street!" No, you don't. You train for the air, or for Chi Sau, and your untested eye gouges and nad kicks most likely wouldn't have helped you against the better stylist.
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odee
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Post by odee on Jun 25, 2012 19:35:11 GMT -5
Take it back to the Wing Chun thread or private messages! Honestly, this is why I dislike people who've spent too much time in Wing Chun schools! It turns them into jerks.
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Post by Glutton4Punishment on Jun 25, 2012 19:39:13 GMT -5
It would be nice if a mod would cull the Wing Chun posts over.
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Chef Samurai
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Post by Chef Samurai on Jun 25, 2012 19:40:42 GMT -5
When the hell did I say variables don't matter? And when the hell did I say that somebody who trains for a rule set will always beat somebody who trains for self defense? The problem is that people say they train in self defense, but they don't. They train with the same rules as somebody training for the ring because they aren't kicking each other in the nuts, they aren't gouging each others eyes out, and in many cases they aren't even sparring at all because their techniques are "too deadly". That's not training for self defense. Full contact training is training for self defense. It can also be training for a sport. But the rules are exactly why Chunners say they can't be effective in the ring. "We train for the street!" No, you don't. You train for the air, or for Chi Sau, and your untested eye gouges and nad kicks most likely wouldn't have helped you against the better stylist.
again your generalizing all chunners os again all maa fighters are wife beaters according to your logic of generalizing everyone.
I trained full contact so I must not have been doing wing chun even though I learned sui lim tao lol
and it was implied that variables don't matter when you generalize everyone because they would be all the same so their can't be variables since every wing school does it all the same ow could there be variables?
I never said full contact training wasn't for self defence I'm all for it you seem to think I'm not though because took wc and every chunner is the same.
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Chef Samurai
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Post by Chef Samurai on Jun 25, 2012 19:43:25 GMT -5
and this post was started because something I said and I would like to be able to defend my reasoning unless there is something wrong with that?
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Post by Glutton4Punishment on Jun 25, 2012 19:47:08 GMT -5
It's started because of something that you AND a ton of other people have said. It's extremely common. That's why I made the post. The logical fallacies posted are there because they are constantly used by people from all backgrounds in arguments about martial arts.
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Chef Samurai
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Post by Chef Samurai on Jun 25, 2012 19:48:34 GMT -5
and people always generalize too but can't admit they are wrong and people can do things differently than others like how ali fought differently than fraiser but they were both boxers.
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