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Post by jaskey on Jun 28, 2012 10:31:56 GMT -5
I don’t have a strong feeling against ‘traditional arts can’t do well in competitions because of the rules’ thing because I don’t know anyone who actually makes this argument personally. But I think it’s a topic that comes up often and it deserves its own thread. My personal view is that yes the traditional arts will be in slight disadvantageous position when in a rule setting. Simple example would be, how well MMA fighter do in a boxing match against a boxer? Given that 66% of what they train in is no longer useful the 66% of their training time goes out the window. So a MMA fighter who trained for 10 years would be fighting like a boxer who trained for 3 years. (For example sake, we can’t actually put numerical value in reality) So wouldn’t a boxer of 4 years beat MMA fighter of 10 years? Maybe? I think this is pretty much the point and fear of the traditionalists. But my thoughts are that the techniques limited to the traditionalists are not as much as 66% of given example, if they seek a competition that most resembles their style. For example aikido should technically be fine in a no-gi grappling tournament since the only techniques not allowed would be the atemis. That limits only 5% or less of their techniques and taken that they aim to submit their opponents, starting from stand up, the no-gi format should work perfectly for them. If anything they have been trained to be aware of strikes and weapons as well as a grappling technique so this type of training should be easier for them. Much easier than if a MMA fighter had to fight in this format. (33% unusable skill sets) And this can be applied to many other traditional styles. Most of their techniques are allowed in a competition format that is closest to their style, and there always is a competition format that will allow most of their style. There are slight disadvantages, but not enough to discourage people from trying and succeeding in amateur competitions. Another thing is that most of those techniques that cannot be use in competitions, also cannot be use in self defense legally. You cannot eye gouge and take someone’s eye sight away unless the threat is also trying to kill/disable you with extreme force(hard to prove unless they have a lethal weapon). You cannot use a improvised weapon unless they have a lethal weapon. You cannot kick and stomp on a fallen enemy because they stopped being a threat. (unless armed with a projectile weapon.) And list goes on and on for most if not all of the techniques forbidden by the competition rules. (I’m thinking MMA rules, but other competition rules would only make it easier for a martial art with a focus to compete) All those techniques are forbidden in competitions because they are lethal and the lethal techniques are forbidden to be used by law against unarmed enemy unless there is a huge difference in size. (think tiny lady vs football player) So unless they would like to successfully defend their and maybe their family’s life only to be sent to jail afterward, leaving the family to fend for themselves, adaptation to the competition rules might be a very good thing for the traditional martial artists. I apologize this post was so long, I’m kind of long winded. ;D
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Chef Samurai
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Post by Chef Samurai on Jun 28, 2012 12:48:15 GMT -5
I see it like how you can't put a muay thai fighter in a wrestling match & expect him to win even though he does grappling.
Sure traditional guys punch & kick but they don't do it the same and your average traditional guy does it like this.
The trachea only takes 80lbs of static pressure to dislodge so you only need to punch that hard because breaking someones forehead takes several hundred lbs of pressure and why break the forehead when you can crush the trachea?
Now you get those people who only hit as hard as they need to in a fight where they have to hit much harder because all their targets are illegal so they either have to adapt or they will fail.
I however take a double pronged approach and I'm a big fan of modern martial arts & traditional martial arts because I don't think you can always win a fight with an eye gouge or a straight cross but a solid game plan of both and a few other things will help much more.
But remember the combat sports were created by traditionalists just trying to look for an physical outlet to express their art.
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Post by jwbulldogs on Jun 28, 2012 14:29:31 GMT -5
I think this is in reference to something that I responded to. Let's take fear out of the equation. Fear has nothing to do with it. Most traditionalist don't have a fear or phobia. They don't have the desire to compete because there is nothing to prove. They know what they are capable of and unfortunately may have proven it in some confrontation that they now wish they had done a better job of avoiding.
The point I was attempting to make is the the rules of the contest are going to be biased toward those that practice on a regular basis for those set of rules. If you require a person not to do what they are trained to do you put them at a disadvantage even though everyone must follow the same rules. A trained boxer may be a great athlete, but in most cases will struggle competing against a wrestler if the are using the rules of wrestling. and vice verse.
You take an aikidoka and put them in mma much of what they train to do can't be done because of the rules and the equipment. You can't use their wrist techniques effectively against a person with mma or boxing gloves on.
Our dojo is in a rec center. We used to get boxer and wrestlers that often challenges us saying that karate stuff don't work. If they asked long enough they would get the spanking that they asked for. But we made it perfectly clear that I'm not a boxer or a wrestler. You do what you do and I'll do what I do. What I do has not rules. Sure we didn't do anything that would break something even though that is part of our training. But it was going to cause some pain. If a boxer threw a punch he might get hit in the groins. He might find himself on the ground and placed into a joint lock. He might get choked out. He might find out what it feel like to have pressure points manipulated. A wrestler would find out what it is like to get hit or kicked or choked, etc. The mma guy will get choked or feel some small joint manipulations. They get to experience groin strikes or even hair pulling or a finger under the tip of the nose.
The common thing we would hear is that you can't do that. Why not? There are no rules. This is how we fight not compete.
Chef, you are right an eye gouge doesn't end most fights, but it will give you enough time to accomplish your real goal. An eye gouge is just a distraction. But you better know how to quickly follow up with a better technique.
If I got into a fight and the person knows bjj. I don't know what they know. But he grabs me with a cross grip like what is taught in bjj. Why wouldn't I used a finger to the eye to loosen the grip? He is within range for that. If he is boxing chance are you can't put a finger into the eye. Then I'd just kick him in the knee then take him down or choke him out. Sure I could do like muay thai and kick to the nerves of the leg until they lock up. But I'm not there to fight. I want to get this over as quick as possible. I don't know id he has help or what he knows even if he don't have help. He might have a weapon hidden on him that he will use given the opportunity.
I know a guy the was mugged. The thief after robbing him at gun point made him take off his shirt, pants and shoes before he let him go. He did this to make sure that he didn't have a weapon concealed on him. When you end a threat you almost have to have the mindset of a criminal. You have to think like they do. You might beat him up, but he will shoot you in the back while you are leaving or cut your throat from behind while you are walking away. You better make sure that they are not in a position to do those things when you leave.
The mindset of an athlete is different than the mindset of a person that only wants to defend themselves or their family.
The athlete knows the rules and prepares themselves for those set of rules. The traditionalist prepares themselves for a fight with no rules other than survive and go home at night. Rules places limitations.
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Post by jaskey on Jul 2, 2012 14:21:16 GMT -5
@chefsamurai actually it is exactly because the combat sports were created by the traditionalists that I expect them to be able to keep up or even do better. I do train in MMA, but I’m a traditional style lover and I want to see more of them in the combat sports using their styles. I think it makes for much more exciting fight to watch and think about, than watching two guys using the exactly the same thing against each other. But I will argue against the crushing of the trachea. First I don’t really believe that a person can successfully land such an attack unless the other person is that much lower leveled. In which case there would be much more less lethal ways to go about this. Also if you crush the trachea I believe the person would suffocate to death unless attended immediately. After having defended yourself in that manner the lawsuit would be of man slaughter, attempted man slaughter, or heavy medical fee for the attacker. (Which sucks, but that’s the US law for you.) So I think training within the certain rules are of benefit even in self defense situations. Although on that note I think people should still train to defend against the trachea attacks. PS as stated earlier there are many cross stylistic competitive formats out there right now and there should be at least one to fit any style out there. So your example of muay thai vs wrestling is not in the spirit of my idea. My idea would go more along the lines of muay thai person competing in K-1 or kickboxing. And wrestler… wrestling.
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Post by jaskey on Jul 2, 2012 15:17:16 GMT -5
jwbulldogs, I understand that not all martial artist wishes to compete and I completely understand that. I personally do not compete and never plan on competing myself. But to think that so many people are learning to fight (and I see that as the primary goal for MA training), and not even a quarter of them thinks of competing seems crazy. It’s like going to the golf range, but never wanting to actually go golfing. (My initial example was basketball drills and basketball, but it seem too out there) And I understand that the rules might favor other styles that has more representation initially, but I don’t think that should stop some people from rising through the ranks. Take judo for example in MMA. MMA lacks Gi and has techniques forbidden in a judo match. And yet we have examples of judokas who has done very well in MMA, and they actually use the judo techniques as well. But that was to serve only as an example I’m thinking more along the lines of judokas competing in open Gi grappling competitions or non Gi competitions. I mean judo isn’t that traditional, but I want to be able to give more traditional style as an example too. (e.g. Lyoto Machida?) I will say hair grabs and groin kicks are a good lawful self defense techniques that is banned by competition, but I think most of good self defense techniques are allowed in competition. But as stated earlier eye gouge is illegal self defensive techniques unless there is clear lethal threat, and the judge of that clear lethal threat will be non-train civilians(aka “your peers”). We cannot, lawfully, over do our part and disable the person until the weapons has been drawn and is being or have been attempted to be used. It’s a messed up law, but we have to try to control them without doing any long term damage. And I think for that competition rules are excellent way to keep yourself from doing that kind of damage and to prove that your techniques were quite safe.(If they use it in sports then it can’t be that bad.) My argument is that as a martial artist we should prepare to defend against all forms of attack, but our own counter attack must be more controlled to follow the rules of the law. And to that end the competitive rules are an excellent training material that encourages those safe techniques and inspire harder training. And I think traditional styles should be able to compete more readily than I think traditionalists believes, and I think they should be encourage to compete.
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odee
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Post by odee on Jul 3, 2012 23:43:47 GMT -5
Their techniques don't have anything to prove. The individual's ability to use those techniques needs to be proved, as does mine as does everyone else's. Knowing a martial art doesn't count for jack shit if you can't use it, that's like carrying a sword that's too heavy to swing. Sure the last guy who carried it could chop trees down in one sweep and defeat any opponent with it but does that really matter when you don't have the power to swing the sword let alone fight with it? Competitions are legal ways of testing your technique against new people.
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Chef Samurai
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Post by Chef Samurai on Jul 9, 2012 3:55:36 GMT -5
I see a traditional martial artist like a portrait painter in a comic book drawing competition where they have to draw unrealistic caricatures of reality when they are used to drawing the most realistic detailed art work possible.
The rules don't allow them to do so many things they are used to because they have to draw comic style which they have never done.
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Post by judomofo on Jul 9, 2012 12:15:47 GMT -5
So I understand some of what you are saying jwbull..
But I also don't understand it based on some of the arguments behind it.
"I know what I can do, and have nothing to prove"...
Well blind faith is what I would call this...
Competetion is just another tool to me, one in which I get to test my art against an unknown. I get to test my technique against another skilled person and see what I need to do to modify it to work.
For example, I was often one of the bigger people in my dojo, regular sparring I got used to certain techniques working. When I went to competetion and was one of the smallest guys in my weight class, I found those same techniques didn't work on guys that size, I had to modify and adapt, I also found how much more energy it took fighting larger people.
These are things I would have never learned if not for competetion.
Let's say that I am the middle guy in my dojo, I train and spar actively with guys of all sizes and shapes, but there is something I am not getting, the fact is, that I know what technique my opponents favor, they know what techniques I favor. Eventually I stale mate with many of them.
Competetion gives me a person whom I have no idea what techniques they favor and vice versa. Additionally there is an intensity level that is vastly different then in the dojo, there is an adrenaline level in both myself and my opponent that doesn't exist in training solely in the dojo.
So while I might "know" what I know with no need to prove myself, in reality I am saying that I don't feel the need to test my art or myself to see if what I have is applicable or not.
I have a theory of what I know... a hypothesis. Untested... despite its history, or where it came from, there still lies in MY Ability to use it properly, in context, against a stranger.
"Athletes prepare themselves for a rule set, traditionalist trains to go fight for life and go home at night"
I guess to me, how can you train for something if you never get close to the intensity and speed of it. Most physical altercations are not battles in which your life is truly on the line. I find that experience in constantly having to adapt techniques to work on different body types, or learning different angles and timing and recognizing openings for techniques leads me to quick, instinctive automatic reactions, and that by the mere fact that I have to constantly improvise in competetion that I do so in reality.
I love taking guys who have done Judo for years and never done No Gi, and having them immediately spar in No Gi, finding out how easy and quickly they actually adapt, because they are used to adapting and improvising.
Competetion isn't an end all, but it is an amazing training tool. One of the best in my opinions.
Rules are limitations that force you to adapt.
I have to try not to do things in competetion that I would gladly do outside of it. You remove those limitations and isn't even a matter of improvising, I am suddenly free from that ruleset and because of my training I can employ my techniques much quickly because I am trained to adapt and improvise.
I can eye gouges as much as the next guy, it doesn't take special training. I've been eye gouged, kicked in the balls, broken bones all in competetion and know my reactions how to keep going, I also know how to defend against them.
I don't view every confrontation as a "kill or be killed" scenario. Even when pulled into an unavoidable physical altercation, I go with what I know is going to work because I have done it a thousand times against skilled opponents, I do it automatically without thinking.
Eye gouging, throat punching, and all that has its purpose. But if you can hit someone's throat, then you can hit their chin, if you hit their chin they go out, the fight is over. If I want to kill a guy, I damn sure don't plan on just using my fists and body... I am shooting, stabbing, bludgeoning, using anything around me... and that is when I feel I am in definitive threat for my life.
Tangling around with a drunk guy who thinks I ogled his girl doesn't mean he needs to be in a wheelchair for the rest of his life.
And while my town is short of homicidal maniacs that jump out of the bushes in broad daylight attempting to kill me, I do think that it is pretty rare I am going to run into someone hell bent on trying to kill me for no good reason, but it could just be the shortage of sociopathic murderers in my town.
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odee
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Post by odee on Jul 31, 2012 3:08:24 GMT -5
Thanks Judomofo. Every post I've ever made compiled into a single post that doesn't sound like ranting or rambling. I'm kind of jealous now.
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