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Post by jwbulldogs on Jun 21, 2012 17:43:23 GMT -5
Jufomofo I always looked forward to your response. I knew they were going to be lengthy, but they were always worth reading. I could always pick up something from them. My question is because there are always these self proclaimed experts that convince many to believe they are experts and that they have reinvented the wheel. The mislead many into believing that everything else is outdated or it doesn't really work even though they haven't tested it. But to say sparring is the key essential to what is realistic training would actually negate aikido and many other arts that were tested on the battlefield daily as a part of life. Aikido doesn't spar. But it was created by a war veteran. It is used by police forces and military in different parts of the world. They have to have historical data of their use and why they still use it today. I think it was possum I maybe wrong that posted a 45 minutes or more video and they or in Okinawa and talk about the styles that never used sparring or they only did focused sparring (no contact). Yet these were highly skilled martial artist that made it through the feudal period because of their training.
By the way yes I do believe in using more lethal or quicker methods of self defense if they are available. But I can't carry everywhere I go.
Even though we spar I realize that sparring is just one of many tools that can be used. But it has its limitations. There are things that are in my arts that I can't do because I need my sparring partners. Even in doing some drills I can't do them at full speed like neck cranks. If I make a mistake and move too fast or use to much force saying oops or I'm sorry will not be sufficient. If I don't use some restraint doing a finger lock or kick to the knee I can't just say my bad. Gloves will prevent you from doing many wrist techniques or finger locks. People will ignorantly say you can't do that in a real fight. I know because I was one of them. But I've learned that you have to know how to set it up. You must practice the different flow drills. Move from one technique to the other. I remember it being done to me when I didn't think it could happen. I can also tell you of the wrist techniques I've used one was against a knife. I didn't want to hurt the person, but they only left with a sore wrist because I asked them 3 times to drop it. The 3rd time I used enough pressure to force the release. I've used the same wrist lock to stop 2 attackers in a fight that were bigger than me. The punch came not at me but I redirected the strike and took the person off balance and away from the person they were fighting. The other person was still going to continue the fight even though I separated them so I took one to the ground to protect my self and use my free hand to control the other attacker with the same lock keeping them apart until someone could grab the other person and pull them away. If they didn't come I was gong to take them to the ground too. You don't or shall I say I don't see anyone using kote gaeshi if I spelled that right, in sparring.
Kyokushin spars heavily. It is pretty impressive from what I've seen. I've never trained with them. But if I'm not mistaken they don't punch to the face. Every fight I've been in someone has tried to punch me in the face. When I was a school boy we punch each other in the chest all day. It was child's game that we played called open chest. Of course occasionally accidents happened and one went a little high to the chin. It may have be deflected. Then a real fight might break out. I grew up and worked in an urban school and they still play that silly game today. I'm puzzled as to why they can't punch in the face but i've seen kicks to the head that knocks a guy out in Kyokushin? LOL
JKD, I think flow are important because I think one hit one kill is unrealistic. That my opinion. Yes I've seen a guy go down with just one hit. But to expect that to happen every time I don't think so. If that did boxing matches would never last 10 rounds. But if I can position myself where you can't strike me and I can control you through pain or because I have taken your balance or you oxygen. I'm free to do whatever I pleased to you.
I enjoy the days when we have multiple attackers. You don't know who is attacking, when or what type of attack. You just better be prepared to defend. you better get it over quick or you learn to use one person briefly as a shield to control where the attack can come from. If not you will get hit in the back of the head.
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Post by Glutton4Punishment on Jun 21, 2012 18:25:04 GMT -5
Kyokushin punches only to the body but can kick to the head. That's the price of bare handed sparring. Most Kyokushin fighters that get into MMA or Kickboxing competition cross train in Boxing.
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Chef Samurai
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Canadian Catch Wrestling
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Post by Chef Samurai on Jun 21, 2012 18:34:05 GMT -5
kyokushin teaches head punches they just don't use it in sparring.
and just because it's not used in sparring doesn't mean it's not part of the style.
@jw- yea true enough it's just too many variables to get the one punch every time.
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odee
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Kyokushin 10 years - Brazilian Jujitsu 3 years - Muay Thai 2 years.
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Post by odee on Jun 21, 2012 19:20:35 GMT -5
I didn't train boxing before I got into kickboxing. We did glove practice in Kyokushin maybe once a month and had an 'animal night' once every two weeks. Head punches weren't so new to what I knew of fighting. When I decided to try kickboxing I just trained extra with my teachers after class.
I'd actually add multiple sparring systems to the list that adds to realism. Having different sparring rules changes the game and forces students to be adaptable. When I did Kyokushin we mostly practiced the knockdown style rules but we also practiced. Kickboxing with K-1ish rules. World Karate rules which allow foot-sweeps and throws. Sparring tied together by the belts to force close range tactics. Animal day - Gloves, headgear, elbow pads, mouth-guards and street style ground and pound. We were also encouraged to join any tournament we could enter. When we achieved shodan we were encouraged to visit schools of other styles for sparring practice. Exposure has always been a big part of Kyokushin.
The Gym that I currently train at has three seperate classes. Brazilian Jujitsu, Muay Thai and MMA. Each of those has their own sparring formats. Brazilian Jujitsu. -Gi grappling only. -No gi grappling only -Judo rules Muay Thai. -Muay Thai rules -K-1ish rules -Boxing MMA. -Australian MMA.
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talon
Yellow Belt
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Post by talon on Jun 22, 2012 1:11:48 GMT -5
Realistic: 1/Yes, limited when training lower ranked members. full contact from black belt onward. 1a/Yes, but it didn't effect my..mo..mi...okay maybe it did 1b/Yes that's the idea behind it, to test & help them correct/adjust their techniques. 1c/Not for the most part, unless I have fought/spared with them before. 1d/Yes, like I said full contact {not holding back} 2/Yes, it's the best way, as real life doesn't go all Matrix & slow down. 3/Yes, you have to be adaptable, & having multiple moves at your disposal is an advantage. 4/Yes.& in fact in a real {unavoidable} fight, that would be my preference. 5/Nope, only when it really needs it. Quick list unrealistic: 1/Yes, any strikes to throat or other areas that may kill or permanently injure, I want to stop Not kill them. 2/Only when I was a new to martial arts, I like unpredictability, as real fights are Not for the most part predictable. 3/Depends on who we are training or what techniques we are focusing on at the time. 4/No, multiple varied strikes & techniques. 5/Only when training the lower ranks. Seniors & higher ranks are taught via adapting to whatever attack comes, with no forewarning to techniques, combinations or attacks ahead of time. 6/Yes, but I'm usually the one teaching it, so i can stop it at any time Life is sometimes predictable, but there are a lot of unpredictable things that happen in life, not only combat situations but other problems/situations that arise. Being adaptable in all parts of your life, is not only good preparation but very wise.
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Post by jwbulldogs on Jun 22, 2012 1:54:40 GMT -5
I only mentioned punching to the head because it was stated that if you don't get punched in the face it is not realistic training. In my opinion it would be contradictory to use kyokushin to validate the argument by saying they use bare knuckle as reality training when in their sparring there are no strikes to the face just kicks.
My point is the reality based training is subjective. I personally don't know of any long term research that says these thing must be included to be realistic. Those that make those statements are based upon theory, opinions. I have nothing against doing these things as we do them. But that does not make what I do better than someone that doesn't. I agree the mcdojo for profit has watered down much to make a profit and because of insurance in some cases. There are techniques that have been taught and have been tested more than 100 years ago. These techniques are just as effective today. Why? Because the human body or anatomy is still the same. The techniques work if you know how to use them. I don;t care if you are resisting or you don't resist. Your techniques better work on those that know what to expect and against those that don't know what to expect.
I went through some testing in an aikido dojo. The sensei purpose used people that had no idea of what was going to be done to make sure the uke wasn't just being compliant. He purposely used much bigger guys to make sure that you can throw anyone of any size. The black belt that were uke were instructed to resist. I even had to change and do a different technique to control him. Then my instincts kicked in and before I knew it I followed up with a stomp and strikes. I was scolded because the kicks weren't allowed. These were natural thing for me to do without thinking because of my training. The guy came over to me after class and asked about my training. He recognized some of what I did because he had been in karate prior to learning aikido. I had never met him prior to that.
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Post by major01 on Jun 22, 2012 12:23:01 GMT -5
Thanks for the interesting discussion, JW I only mentioned punching to the head because it was stated that if you don't get punched in the face it is not realistic training. In my opinion it would be contradictory to use kyokushin to validate the argument by saying they use bare knuckle as reality training when in their sparring there are no strikes to the face just kicks. If you'll look again, you'll see that judomofo stated "hit", not punch. And we all know that those Kyokushin guys get their shit kicked in on a pretty regular basis. Yes, lack of punches to the face during kumite is a flaw in the training (though I'm pretty sure they still train headpunches), but from a self-defense standpoint, so are gloves. So are mouthguards and cups. The point is, as I stated before, the more realistic training is the more closely it approximates, and prepares you for, the realities of an actual fight. KK guys know how to take a hit, they know about timing, they know about improvisation. They know what it's like to be in a fairly realistic simulation of what a fight is, and for those reasons they do realistic training. There are techniques that have been taught and have been tested more than 100 years ago. These techniques are just as effective today. Why? Because the human body or anatomy is still the same. The techniques work if you know how to use them. I don;t care if you are resisting or you don't resist. You've mentioned Aikido several times as some sort of counterexample, but let's be honest, a very high percentage of Aikidoka don't know how to fight. That's not to say the style is worthless, and much of Aikido's foundation comes from samurai arts where things had to work, but a lot has changed since Ueshiba's time. I've heard second hand from a handful of practitioners that Saotome Shihan has complained of a lack of "fight mentality" in many of his students -- they've forgotten the martial aspect of martial arts. Yes, I'm sure there are LEOs who use Aikido, and I've known marines who have, but they regularly tested their art, often in some sort of freesparring. There are techniques and styles which have historical data to validate their effectiveness, but to make that style or technique work for you, you need to know how to apply them. The fact that my MA forefathers survived with this or that technique is no guarantee that I will unless I've practiced that technique under realistic circumstances. Let me reiterate Judomofo's most important point -- MA seems to be the only area where people think you learn to do something by not ever doing it. An actual NHB fight is too dangerous to replicate on a regular basis, but in preparing ourselves for that eventuality, we should approach that ideal as closely as possible.
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alex
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Post by alex on Jun 23, 2012 0:07:28 GMT -5
I've experienced both types of training, as well as some that fell in between the two extremes. While I agree that realistic training is far superior, there is nothing wrong with practicing some techniques that can't be safely trained full force with a partner. For example, eye gouges are very effective for self defense. Just look how fighters react to an accidental eye poke. And I for one wouldn't really want to spar with guys who were trying to kick me in the balls full force or side kick my knee joint. I suppose that makes my sparring less than 100% realistic, but so be it. You can't train if you are always injured.
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odee
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Post by odee on Jun 23, 2012 0:26:17 GMT -5
A kick to the balls is an interesting part of sparring. I don't really see the point a full force kick to the balls when a tap is all it takes to drop someone who isn't used to it. People put so much stock in a hard kick to the nuts when the truth is a tap in the jewels will floor damn near anyone. The funny thing is that there is no in between, you get people who'll fall from the tap and you get to the guys who have trained themselves to wear it and you'd litterally have to break their groin to make what was a nut shot matter.
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Post by defendu on Jun 23, 2012 18:48:44 GMT -5
wow dude, your list of realistic training is pretty long, a bit complicated at that. Sparring seems pretty unrealistic if you're referring to self-defence or street applications: an assault isn't a sparring match. Number 4 is pretty interesting too. How do you stop an attacker without causing permanent injury? I mean, if the dude is bigger than you and on speed, well then, you may need to inflict some serious injury, even if permanent, besides, why do you care if a thug suffers permanent injury?
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Post by jakethecake on Jun 26, 2012 10:08:47 GMT -5
Since everybody seems to make Aikido the poster child for unrealistic training, what are the thoughts on Tomiki or Shodokan Aikido? That is the unofficial branch of Aikido founded by Kenji Tomiki where full resistance and sparring is heavily emphasized.
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Post by Glutton4Punishment on Jun 27, 2012 11:58:58 GMT -5
I have no experience with Tomiki or Shodokan, but I can tell you that I am in no way against Aikido as a Martial Art. It is not on my list of favorite styles for fighting, but it is a fantastic art for anybody who wants to immerse their self in another culture. Plus it's not completely useless. It just takes a lot more time to become proficient in than something like Judo or Jiu-Jitsu due to its focus on harmonizing with opponents and pacifistic philosophy. The techniques involved require much finer motor skills than things like double leg takedowns, O Goshi, armbars or RNCs, etc.
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Post by judomofo on Jul 9, 2012 11:09:19 GMT -5
wow dude, your list of realistic training is pretty long, a bit complicated at that. Sparring seems pretty unrealistic if you're referring to self-defence or street applications: an assault isn't a sparring match. Number 4 is pretty interesting too. How do you stop an attacker without causing permanent injury? I mean, if the dude is bigger than you and on speed, well then, you may need to inflict some serious injury, even if permanent, besides, why do you care if a thug suffers permanent injury? Sparring is the only way to develop true timing and experience applying technique, adapting and modifying technique to work on a resistant opponent. "Self defense/assault/street application" to me it depends on how define each thing. Most people think an ego based brawl between two people is a no holds barred fight to the death "street fight". And that isn't true, first it is consensual, it is avoidable, and there are rules... they are called Laws. Assault: This is the other thing that bothers me, unless you live in an extremely high crime area, people aren't just jumping out of bushes and unarmed attacking you for no reason. This wild west world people attempt to protray where any second you could be thrown into a violent unprovoked fight for your life is about as likely as getting hit by lightning. How do I stop a large untrained guy without maiming him? I could choke him out, I could use his body against him, bounce him off the ground and use leverage/pain compliance to restrain. I could even set up a number of ways of knocking him out... Why do I care about a thug? Because you are more likely to use your Martial Arts in a variety of situations, i.e. drunk morons, perhaps a drunk buddy who wants to drive. Then you are going to be attacked by a thug... someone who wants to rob you, is going to use a weapon and doesn't want a fight. A drunk guy at the bar is just a guy, and should be easy to take out without turning him into hamburger meat. Not to mention not only do you have criminal charges to deal with, (curb stomping an unarmed drunk person is not self defense when it goes above and beyond what is needed to stop the threat or allow yourself to get away), but we live in an incredibly litigious society, even if you escape criminal charges, you can be sued civilly. The old argument of "better to be judged by 12 then carried by 6" is utter bs. Rarely is your life on the line in an unarmed fight. Most of them are completely avoidable, involve egos and alcohol. Being robbed is not life or death, compliance is all that is needed. Very rarely are you ever going to encounter a situation outside of being a combatant in a war, where someone is actively trying to kill you. If you are solely training to defend yourself against someone actively trying to murder you, then spend some time learning defenses against shark attacks, and lightning. Real world scenario is that most of the time deadly force isn't needed, and if it is, you are a fool to bring a fist to a gun fight. I studied Tomiki Aikido and it is vastly different from when I studied at other Aikido schools, in the fact that in reality techniques have to be heavily modified to work on resisting opponents, Tomiki sparring looks a lot like Judo with some additional locks thrown in. Personally I love it. When it comes to getting hit in the fist, I don't think you need to be getting drilled in the mug daily. I think some time needs to be spent on knowing what it is like to be hit in the face, learning to control yourself and your emotions and reactions after getting hit in the face. So even if it is 1 sparring session a week with gloves, understanding your reactions to getting rocked is important.. because 50% of the average joes are either going to get angry and just charge after taking a shot to the chops, and 50% are going to wilt after. But knowing how to take a punch to the face, keep your cool, continue to fight your fight is important, as is knowing how to defend yourself after being disoriented. As I mentioned, for some reason the "Mysticism" of Martial Arts that seems to get passed around is that you can learn to do something (i.e. fight) without actually doing it.
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