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Post by judomofo on Jun 20, 2012 14:34:23 GMT -5
Once there are more members here, I am sure I could get a lot of feedback on this.
To me here is a quick checklist if you have participated in realistic training.
1. Do you spar? 1a. Have you been hit in the face? 1b. Is your "opponent" actually trying to execute techniques against you. 1c. Are you aware ahead of time of what attack/technique you are about to defend? 1d. Are you struck/thrown hard enough to have bruises.
2. Do you ever get to use a technique at real time speed and intensity against a resisting opponent?
3. Are your techniques part of a combination of techniques with no specific technique meant as a "fight ender". Basically meaning that you are able to flow if a technique fails to disable an attacker.
4. Are you able to incapacitate a would be attacker at least to the point of your escape without causing permanent damage?
5. Do you have to wash your Gi/Workout clothes after 1 practice?
A quick checklist of unrealistic training.
1. Are there techniques you never practice or attempt to replicate against a resisting opponent because they are "too dangerous".
2. Do you spend a large portion of time on drills in which your opponent attacks in a predetermined motion.. (i.e. straight punch, ice pick grip overhead stab, haymaker).
3. Do the majority of responses of attacks include pantomimed strikes to sensitive areas, or attacks intent on maiming..
4. Do you spend a lot of time on 1 or 2 step drills?
5. Do you spend a lot of time on responses to attacks that go through 4 or 5 technique combinations? (i.e., guy straight punches, you outward block, capture arm, elbow face, knee groin, as he doubles over you elbow/strike back of neck).
6. When learning a particular technique and going over it with your partner, do you often find yourself thinking (I could easily stop this?).
Just some examples....
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Post by Glutton4Punishment on Jun 20, 2012 15:15:21 GMT -5
1. Do you spar? YES 1a. Have you been hit in the face? YES 1b. Is your "opponent" actually trying to execute techniques against you. YES 1c. Are you aware ahead of time of what attack/technique you are about to defend? NO (Unless it's a mittwork drill) 1d. Are you struck/thrown hard enough to have bruises. YES, TONS OF THEM.
2. Do you ever get to use a technique at real time speed and intensity against a resisting opponent? CONSTANTLY
3. Are your techniques part of a combination of techniques with no specific technique meant as a "fight ender". Basically meaning that you are able to flow if a technique fails to disable an attacker. YES
4. Are you able to incapacitate a would be attacker at least to the point of your escape without causing permanent damage? I BELIEVE SO, AS LONG AS MY ATTACKER ISN'T CHUCK NORRIS
5. Do you have to wash your Gi/Workout clothes after 1 practice? ARE YOU KIDDING? I PUT TOWELS ON THE SEATS OF MY CAR SO THAT MY CLOTHES DON'T INFECT IT WITH THE STINK I LEAVE WITH.
On the other checklist, the only one I can relate to is the first one. Some Muay Thai gyms teach it and some don't, but there are attacks to the eyes and groin that we don't use against each other in sparring. Muay Thai is not always strictly a sport style.
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Post by major01 on Jun 20, 2012 17:27:19 GMT -5
Realistic 1. Yes 1a. More times than I can count. Or remember. Or remember how to count. 1b. Yes 1c. No, at least not in a pre-planned fashion. 1d. Indeed. I've a nice one on my thigh as we speak.
2. The only way I consider a technique to be actually "used" is at real time and intensity against a resisting opponent.
3. Yes. The fight ends when the fight ends.
4. In theory. Pretty much every technique has the potential to cause permanent damage. Some are more prone to that than others, and the intention of a technique may be to subdue rather than maim or kill, but a fight is dangerous business, and we shouldn't delude ourselves into thinking otherwise.
5. My sweat doesn't stink ;D
Unrealistic 1. There are certain techniques that I won't use in sparring because of the potential danger in using them at full intensity. Just as I won't attempt to throw an opponent in a standing headlock, or use certain submissions to the extent that perhaps they were originally intended at the time they were developed.
But if the situation calls for it and the opportunity arises, I might throw in a downward bong gherk to the side of the knee cap, or a finger jab to the throat. That's certainly not my first reaction, but I don't want it to be my last either.
2. Over the first few classes, perhaps, but not after that.
3-5. No
Given that I practice WC, many probably won't believe my answers to the above. But I spent enough time in the ring before starting the Chun to demand that sparring against resisting opponents (or "Aliveness" as the Matt Thornton flunkies call it) be an essential part of the curriculum of every martial art I take up. If that meant lots of research and footwork to find such a school, then so be it.
That's also a reason I have such a huge amount of respect for MA like boxing, kickboxing, Muay Thai, BJJ, Judo, wrestling, Kyokushin, and MMA, where "aliveness" is such an integral part of the training.
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odee
Global Moderator
Kyokushin 10 years - Brazilian Jujitsu 3 years - Muay Thai 2 years.
Posts: 1,286
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Post by odee on Jun 20, 2012 17:51:31 GMT -5
Once there are more members here, I am sure I could get a lot of feedback on this. To me here is a quick checklist if you have participated in realistic training. 1. Do you spar? YES. 1a. Have you been hit in the face? YES. Extra points for chipped teeth from a rising elbow? Bit through the mouth-guard to do it. 1b. Is your "opponent" actually trying to execute techniques against you. Yes 1c. Are you aware ahead of time of what attack/technique you are about to defend? Sometimes...foresight has never been something I've accomplished too well. 1d. Are you struck/thrown hard enough to have bruises. Nightly. 2. Do you ever get to use a technique at real time speed and intensity against a resisting opponent? Every training session in Brazilian Jujitsu, once a week in MMA class, once a week in Muay Thai. Every Tuesday and Thursday when I did Kyokushin. 3. Are your techniques part of a combination of techniques with no specific technique meant as a "fight ender". Basically meaning that you are able to flow if a technique fails to disable an attacker. Usually no, sometimes yes. 4. Are you able to incapacitate a would be attacker at least to the point of your escape without causing permanent damage? Depends on the attacker. The better the attacker the less chance of escape without somebody getting permanently busted. 5. Do you have to wash your Gi/Workout clothes after 1 practice? Hells yes. I change sweat-shirts during the break so that people won't refuse to roll with me. A quick checklist of unrealistic training. 1. Are there techniques you never practice or attempt to replicate against a resisting opponent because they are "too dangerous". Actually yes. I've never followed through with a number of joint strikes in the dojo or gym but I have destroyed a knee with one in a bar and have no doubt that it has the same chance of being defended against as any other kick. 2. Do you spend a large portion of time on drills in which your opponent attacks in a predetermined motion.. (i.e. straight punch, ice pick grip overhead stab, haymaker). Only during the beginner classes. 3. Do the majority of responses of attacks include pantomimed strikes to sensitive areas, or attacks intent on maiming. Depends on what I'm actually doing. 4. Do you spend a lot of time on 1 or 2 step drills? No. 5. Do you spend a lot of time on responses to attacks that go through 4 or 5 technique combinations? (i.e., guy straight punches, you outward block, capture arm, elbow face, knee groin, as he doubles over you elbow/strike back of neck). No. 6. When learning a particular technique and going over it with your partner, do you often find yourself thinking (I could easily stop this?). Depends on the partner. Just some examples....
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Post by youxia on Jun 20, 2012 19:04:34 GMT -5
1. Do you spar? I'm not advanced enough for full on sparring, but the chi sau we do is similar- trying to punch each other.
1a. Have you been hit in the face? Yeah a few times, face swelled up lol.
1b. Is your "opponent" actually trying to execute techniques against you. Most do but hold back on the power, others choose to put you on the floor and get elbows in.
1c. Are you aware ahead of time of what attack/technique you are about to defend? No, the training is spontanious and Wing Chun is very anti-telegraphing. Most people don't even look at there arms and instead rely on just feeling what to do.
1d. Are you struck/thrown hard enough to have bruises. I've had lots of bruises on my forearms, but the people there want to help you advance and train with you rather than on you.
2. Do you ever get to use a technique at real time speed and intensity against a resisting opponent? In chi sau you have to, but not actually hitting if you can help it. But advanced people do lut sau, which is free sparring where that's exactly what happens. Ip Man himself said " Lut Sau Kin Kung Fu", meaning "Real Kung Fu can be seen from Free Sparring".
3. Are your techniques part of a combination of techniques with no specific technique meant as a "fight ender". Basically meaning that you are able to flow if a technique fails to disable an attacker. We don't really have many things meant as a "fight ender", and locks and such are generally discouraged, as if although you've stopped him from moving, as long as you have to hold the lock your immbolised yourself. You'd think Wing Chun chain punches for this, but the reason we do those isn't for 10 punches in one second, it's for one powerful punch in a tenth of a second. If your interested look up the film "Warriors two", that's more what WC looks like.
4. Are you able to incapacitate a would be attacker at least to the point of your escape without causing permanent damage? I'd hope so, but I've never been in that kind of situation so I can't know for sure. I'd hope I could keep a cool head and apply what I've learnt.
5. Do you have to wash your Gi/Workout clothes after 1 practice? No, but some people sweat a lot so probably do.
A quick checklist of unrealistic training.
1. Are there techniques you never practice or attempt to replicate against a resisting opponent because they are "too dangerous". No, if that were the case you'd never be able to use them. You either put the power in but stop before you hit them- my Sifu demonstrated this on my friend with a biu, and my friend has since never stopped talking about how his finger stopped "1mm away" from his eye. That's good for control, but if your unsure you do the move but hold back on the power. For example, I was partnered with an advanced student who knew nerve punching stuff (apparently not as complicated as you'd think, all he was doing was shoving a pheonix eye punch into my armpit- and apparently punching someones armpit hurts more than being hit in your balls), I've heard it hurts so much you can pass out, but he does it fast, but just doesn't do the power on the end of it. He knew some bizzare stuff, like I asked him about all this nerve stuff and he showed me this thing where he grabbed my arm on what must have been some specific places and it felt really weird and I couldn't move my arm.
2. Do you spend a large portion of time on drills in which your opponent attacks in a predetermined motion.. (i.e. straight punch, ice pick grip overhead stab, haymaker). Honestly, yes. But that's only so afterwards we can know what blocks to do during the free flow, where one person throws random punches and you have to block them and counter.
3. Do the majority of responses of attacks include pantomimed strikes to sensitive areas, or attacks intent on maiming.. No, I think it's probably unrealistic unless your very advanced to be able to hit vital points. Generally attack wise it's punches to face and chest, maybe an elbow in if your really close, and stomping kicks to the knee.
4. Do you spend a lot of time on 1 or 2 step drills? I don't know what that is?
5. Do you spend a lot of time on responses to attacks that go through 4 or 5 technique combinations? (i.e., guy straight punches, you outward block, capture arm, elbow face, knee groin, as he doubles over you elbow/strike back of neck). No, my Sifu despises learning combos. He says it's bad training as there is no way your attacker on the street will do some routine or just let you hit him.
6. When learning a particular technique and going over it with your partner, do you often find yourself thinking (I could easily stop this?). I've thought that before so just tried my luck stopping it... And ended up with my arm behind my back. Everytime I think that I try it on and get whooped, but with Sifu I have never felt like I could stop anything he does.
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Post by kokoro on Jun 20, 2012 19:19:42 GMT -5
part of training should be sparing if you dont have some type of contact sparing your not training
so to answer your questions 1. yes 1a. in sparing yes, i broke my nose and received 45 stitches just in the face during practice alone. 1b. he better be 1c. in some case yes in, and in some no. it depends upon the level of experience the other person has. some people i can read like a book others i cant get. 1d. if your not bruised it wasnt a good sparing session, but again this depends upon the level im sparing with as well as who. some people who i trust we mix it up pretty good, other, i dont trust them enough or they are not at that level.
although i do need to train more with my old sparing partners, we could go at a good contact level and not bust eachother up if and when someone slipped at least in most cases
2. yes we do. there are several types of sparing. some are 1 attack, other 3 to 5, and then there is free style. but there is also the link between kata bunkai and kumite, i think the term is kisa kumite. where you use the kata application against a resistive opponent. (i'll have to check to make sure that is the correct term)
3. yes they are, we were taught to never stop at one technique it should be at least 3 to 5 even if the first one is meant to be an ikken hitsu. you fight until its over. never turn your back. and dont assume he is down for the count. i made that mistake once, and payed for it dearly.
4. depends upon the person attacking me. if he is some one i think i cant handle, i intend to disable him. my lawyer can straight it out later
5. well if you dont then it wasnt a good workout. your gi should be soaked by then end.
------------------- A quick checklist of unrealistic training.
1. there are a number that i can think of that can't be applied in against a resistive opponent.
2. (i.e. straight punch, ice pick grip overhead stab, haymaker). straight punches we do a lot of during sparing, i dont get too many haymakers coming at me or ice pick type movements during regular sparing. although i use the haymaker occasionally during sparing. and it gets most people. you think they would catch on. i like to be unpredictable duing sparing and keep people on there toes. during one bout i pulled the persons gi over his head. more because it was the perfect scenario for it. those types of movements i end up doing during drills since there not in sparing as much
my biggest issue people fall back formal attacks during class they dont think outside the box, there is no rules about not using haymakers why dont they throw them. they only think linear karate is not all linear, and in a real fight it wont be either.
3. in training it depends where im training. one dojo i goto they focus on kyusho jujtsu in my opinion way too much to the point there depending on it for everything, another one i train uses finishing techniques more ikken hitsu, as well as there needs to be a balance in between which is the way i try to teach
4-5 this is covered in ippon, sanbo, gohon kumite and jiyu kumite. although i need to more add more higher combinations in (4 to 5 attacks)
we also do sparing outside the dojo. in unfamiliar settings, like on ice or an bleachers and stairwells in water, sand and soforth , or at least i do with some of my more experienced friends, some of my students dont show up to them, they think im nuts. i tell them its all fun and games until your attacked some where and cant cope with the surroundings. im looking for new ideas about this if anyone has any let me know
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rikashiku
Yellow Belt
I'm watching.
Posts: 90
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Post by rikashiku on Jun 20, 2012 21:36:39 GMT -5
1. Yes 1a. Yes 1b. Some of them do so lightly, others a little to hard for sparring. I actually got pissed off one time and I kinda kicked him in the face... 1c. Yes. 1d. I've been kicked in the balls by a 5'1" woman during sparring. She had a fight coming up and no one wanted to spar with her... now I know.
2. You mean during sparring or a real fight? We do go faster and harder in sparring but not full contact. In real fights, well, lets just say I have a problem with hitting to hard.
3. Yes. Punch after punch. Kick after punch. Grapple after punch. All my techniques, even in gloves are open handed, never close fisted.
4. Yes. I've done that a few times now, especially in my teenage years.
5. YES!!!!!!!!! It stinks if you don't. I buy several training gear so I can be lazy and not wash clothes that night.
A quick checklist of unrealistic training.
1. Yes. I try to never kick high for their own safety. I never kick to low. Since I can't edge strike in gloves, I don't use those. I try to minimize what techniques I learned from past training experience.
2. No. We do learn that non-trained people do fight with big swings and we learn to block them but we didnt do that to often.
3. Yes and no lol! A lot of the more experienced instructors in the ITF gym I visited pantomimed what pain was like but just to be clowns. We didn't do it for training but we did take steps with each technique.
4. No. We learn a move and go on to another technique.
5. Never. When attacked, in any martial gym I've been to, we always just go for one move.
6. Sometimes. If its a technique I already know then I'll say I can easily stop it. People who know a technique will know its strengths. Knowing the strength means you know its weakness.
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Post by jwbulldogs on Jun 21, 2012 1:24:32 GMT -5
I'm curious as to why this list didn't include no gloves in sparring? I have yet to see any real fights that included any type of gloves.
It doesn't matter how realistic we try to make our training. It will always lack something. We should try to make t as real as we can. But in reality there are things that we can't do the same as we would do if we are being attacked. I would never spit in the face of a person in the dojo, but I would in the street. I would never attempt to destroy a limb in the dojo but I will in the street. i will show that I went to destroy the knee in the dojo and do enough to let them know I'm there, but I have to do so without harming them. I need my practice partners. I don'y bite people in the dojo, but I teach it and would use if put in the position. I've been bitten in the dojo...lol I know one lady that when she forgets how to escape she will bite you to get you off of her. I'm gad she can get out, but in my opinion she should be able to use some other techniques too especially at her rank.
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Post by jwbulldogs on Jun 21, 2012 1:41:30 GMT -5
Once there are more members here, I am sure I could get a lot of feedback on this. To me here is a quick checklist if you have participated in realistic training. 1. Do you spar? y 1a. Have you been hit in the face? not lately, but yes 1b. Is your "opponent" actually trying to execute techniques against you. y 1c. Are you aware ahead of time of what attack/technique you are about to defend? no 1d. Are you struck/thrown hard enough to have bruises. yes, I can't recall being bruised from a throw. 2. Do you ever get to use a technique at real time speed and intensity against a resisting opponent? y 3. Are your techniques part of a combination of techniques with no specific technique meant as a "fight ender". Basically meaning that you are able to flow if a technique fails to disable an attacker. I know karate is supposed to be one hit one kill. But that is not allowed in our dojo. There better be a combination of techniques. You better be able to transition fro one to another. 4. Are you able to incapacitate a would be attacker at least to the point of your escape without causing permanent damage? yes, but if it is a real situation why would I want to. 5. Do you have to wash your Gi/Workout clothes after 1 practice? You better have more than one gi A quick checklist of unrealistic training. 1. Are there techniques you never practice or attempt to replicate against a resisting opponent because they are "too dangerous". yes 2. Do you spend a large portion of time on drills in which your opponent attacks in a predetermined motion.. (i.e. straight punch, ice pick grip overhead stab, haymaker). That's for beginners. 3. Do the majority of responses of attacks include pantomimed strikes to sensitive areas, or attacks intent on maiming..This is only a portion of the training not the majority 4. Do you spend a lot of time on 1 or 2 step drills? no; it is a portion. Drills are important. I think of them as training wheels. You have on the training wheels, but eventually you learn to ride without those wheels 5. Do you spend a lot of time on responses to attacks that go through 4 or 5 technique combinations? (i.e., guy straight punches, you outward block, capture arm, elbow face, knee groin, as he doubles over you elbow/strike back of neck). no 6. When learning a particular technique and going over it with your partner, do you often find yourself thinking (I could easily stop this?). I've thought that before. Sometimes I was right and other times I was wrong Just some examples....
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Post by jwbulldogs on Jun 21, 2012 11:14:42 GMT -5
I'm glad to see judomofo is still around. He used to be seen more in YA, but rarely responds there as far as I can tell. His answers were always well thought out and he is very knowledgeable. If I remember correctly he has a background in TMA but now trains MMA. He is one of the most knowledgeable people that used to answer a lot on yahoo in my opinion. I've missed his responses. They were very informative.
But I'm curious about the source of the reality training and not reality training questionnaire. We often read or hear about reality based or realistic training and what's not realistic.
But who determines what is realistic or not or what is reality based?
By what authority have they been given this honor to say say what is or isn't realistic.?
Who conducted the research?
Where was the research done?
Who was part of the test panel? Control group?
How many people were involved? How long did the research last or what was the duration of the study groups?
Is this just an opinions or theories that is not supported by scholarly data or historical fact?
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Post by major01 on Jun 21, 2012 14:35:32 GMT -5
But I'm curious about the source of the reality training and not reality training questionnaire. We often read or hear about reality based or realistic training and what's not realistic. But who determines what is realistic or not or what is reality based? By what authority have they been given this honor to say say what is or isn't realistic.? Who conducted the research? Where was the research done? Who was part of the test panel? Control group? How many people were involved? How long did the research last or what was the duration of the study groups? Is this just an opinions or theories that is not supported by scholarly data or historical fact? The more realistic training is the more closely it approximates, and prepares you for, the realities of an actual fight. We don't need published research to tell us what is obvious and trivial. To use the common analogy, you don't learn to swim on land. Now I don't exactly agree with everything judomofo listed as characteristics of realistic/unrealistic training, as evidenced by my response above, but it seems fairly obvious that too much emphasis on highly-controlled, predetermined drills would not prepare you for the unpredictable, and often brutal, nature of a fight. Drills are perhaps an important early step in the process of learning a MA, but if all you've ever attempted a technique on were compliant partners or air ninjas, then how do react in a situation where a real opponent is coming at you with full intensity, actively trying to hurt you? If you've never been roughed up in the course of your training, then what do you do when some barfly lands a suckerpunch? Do you hold your face and curse at him? Do you hesitate? If you're not sweating and breathing heavily at some point in your training, will you be physically able to keep up when the time comes to defend yourself? These are simple questions, and all it takes is a cursory examination to realize that what judomofo writes is largely accurate. We don't need "scholarly data" to tell us that any more than we need some peer-reviewed paper to tell us that men like women with big breasts. We know it from common sense and we know it from experience.
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Post by judomofo on Jun 21, 2012 14:42:55 GMT -5
I'm glad to see judomofo is still around. He used to be seen more in YA, but rarely responds there as far as I can tell. His answers were always well thought out and he is very knowledgeable. If I remember correctly he has a background in TMA but now trains MMA. He is one of the most knowledgeable people that used to answer a lot on yahoo in my opinion. I've missed his responses. They were very informative. But I'm curious about the source of the reality training and not reality training questionnaire. We often read or hear about reality based or realistic training and what's not realistic. But who determines what is realistic or not or what is reality based? By what authority have they been given this honor to say say what is or isn't realistic.? Who conducted the research? Where was the research done? Who was part of the test panel? Control group? How many people were involved? How long did the research last or what was the duration of the study groups? Is this just an opinions or theories that is not supported by scholarly data or historical fact? Hey JW thanks for the compliments. I guess I lean more towards, what will give you practical applicable experience in applying technique. I think by and large early Martial Arts encompassed most of the "Aliveness" aspect, hard contact was a daily occurrance as was the necessity to use your skill. Societal evolution, and the watering down of arts, particularly those leaning heavily towards the retention of students for profit has certainly caused a degradation in Martial Arts. Aside from studies conducted for specific training for various Military and Law Enforcement agencies throughout the world, let's look at it logically. Martial Arts seems to be the one area that some people feel you can get better at something (hand to hand combat) without actually doing it. There is a seeking of shortcut or fast food style Martial Arts where someone learns the hidden technique or secret, with minimal effort. Even if that minimal effort is something that takes YEARS to accomplish. For example you will find women in McDojo's for a decade, without half the applicable skill that a woman who has been doing full contact sparring has in 3 months. The difference, is woman in McDojo doesn't want the intensity of being hit. I should rephrase the term "Realistic", more of what sort of training is more likely to give you applicable technique you would resort to without thinking. Without true speed and intent, you never develop the timing needed to truly know how to defend, similarly, without someone also trying to stop you, you never truly understand the timing, and adaptation to a technique to make it applicable for the circumstance. Sparring is all about improvisation, learning how to apply technique and how to adapt it for your body, or more simply what works and what doesn't when someone is really trying to stop you and is returning fire. You are not going to do a technique the way your instructor does ultimately, there is going to be some small change in leverage, angle, direction, unless your body is an exact clone. So while you will spend time learning the "kata" form of a technique, so that you understand the fundamental of it, Bunkai to me is more than finding and interpreting techniques from a kata but also figuring out how YOU do a specific technique, how does it work for you, what do YOU do to set it up. While certain techniques are indeed unsafe to routinely practice, they can be simulated to a degree. If eye gouges play a part in your art, at least a few times a year you should do some simple sparring exercises for them. For example using safety goggles and finger paint. Redman suits are also awesome for getting a chance to unleash a full variety of techniques. I have used seminutions, and airsoft guns to practice gun disarms. But I think more than having to point to studies, you could point to history, the fact the vast majority of Martial Arts came from a point where there were lei tai matches, dojo yoburis, and routine challenge matches. Guys like Mas Oyama essentially built their art on their combat ability. I think history points towards what works practically and what doesn't, as well as logic. Who is going to hammer a nail in faster, someone who nails in a hundred nails a day, or a guy who swings an invisible hammer, at an invisible nail. But you can also look at modern military combatatives programs, which heavily stress hard sparring, intuitive simple techniques, and competetion. There is a heavy involvement in Law Enforcement combat art competetions as well. I do agree to some degree about no one mentioning lack of gloves, (Kyokushin spar heavily without gloves), I think the key is being able to safely replicate as close as possible. Obviously training without gloves lends to a shorter amount of time training, as well as a longer amount of time between training sessions. Just the cuts alone. And while yes, there are techniques I believe in that I don't practice on my training partners, someone of them aren't really techniques.. despite what Master Ken says, pretty much everyone in the world knows the groin grab, there isn't a whole lot of technique involved there. While vital area strikes are great, in reality if I have the ability to hit a quarter to golf ball sized target on a moving person who is throwing strikes at me and flailing around, I should very easily be able to hit the softball sized target that is the chin to flash KO him. Our training and knowledge gives us a greater understanding of anatomy, leverage, how the human body works and moves, it should also give us greater empathy in how we apply our techniques. If something gets to the point that maiming or killing is necessary, why on earth would I resort to just using my body? Guns, knives, keys, kobutans, any improvised weaponry does me much better, and has the added bonus of letting something else take the impact, and has a much more efficient result. Also I like big boobs...
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Post by judomofo on Jun 21, 2012 15:20:41 GMT -5
Once there are more members here, I am sure I could get a lot of feedback on this. To me here is a quick checklist if you have participated in realistic training. 1. Do you spar? 1a. Have you been hit in the face? 1b. Is your "opponent" actually trying to execute techniques against you. 1c. Are you aware ahead of time of what attack/technique you are about to defend? 1d. Are you struck/thrown hard enough to have bruises. 2. Do you ever get to use a technique at real time speed and intensity against a resisting opponent? 3. Are your techniques part of a combination of techniques with no specific technique meant as a "fight ender". Basically meaning that you are able to flow if a technique fails to disable an attacker. 4. Are you able to incapacitate a would be attacker at least to the point of your escape without causing permanent damage? 5. Do you have to wash your Gi/Workout clothes after 1 practice? A quick checklist of unrealistic training. 1. Are there techniques you never practice or attempt to replicate against a resisting opponent because they are "too dangerous". 2. Do you spend a large portion of time on drills in which your opponent attacks in a predetermined motion.. (i.e. straight punch, ice pick grip overhead stab, haymaker). 3. Do the majority of responses of attacks include pantomimed strikes to sensitive areas, or attacks intent on maiming.. 4. Do you spend a lot of time on 1 or 2 step drills? 5. Do you spend a lot of time on responses to attacks that go through 4 or 5 technique combinations? (i.e., guy straight punches, you outward block, capture arm, elbow face, knee groin, as he doubles over you elbow/strike back of neck). 6. When learning a particular technique and going over it with your partner, do you often find yourself thinking (I could easily stop this?). Just some examples.... So some clarifications as to why I ask. 1.-1d, pretty much self explanatory, solid intensity in sparring. 2. Also self explanatory, development of applicable technique. If I can apply a technique against someone aware of that technique, and it's defenses, and is either unable to see it coming, or unable to stop it, then chances are someone utterly unfamiliar with it or its defenses are going to be caught by it. 3. Somewhat self explanatory, some arts focus on 2 to 3 techniques, (guy punches, I execute A, B, then C, he is out). What if A misses, what if he doesn't react to B the way you think he will. etc. 4. So some qualification is needed, but in theory against an unskilled or average skill person, a trained skill martial artist should be able to end the fight in a way that doesn't leave the guy drinking through a straw and in a wheelchair for life. So yes it does depend on opponent and situation, but all in all, drunk guy starts something at the bar, you should be able to put him out in a way that doesn't require a hospital visit for him. Doesn't mean that is the way it should go, but there are more times in which you can use your art in a way to not cause permanent damage then there are times in which maiming is required. I.e. if you got to handle drunk Uncle Jesse at the family reunion who is getting a little out of hand it shouldn't require you blasting out his knee caps, and performing a tracheotomy Road House style. 5. If you are not covered in sweat, you aren't working. More importantly you are not even getting close to massively elevating your heart rate, which is one of the first things that happen during an adrenaline dump. Performing techniques while at high Bpm is not only good fitness, but preps you to understanding how your body works with that elevated blood pressure. Unlreaslistic: 1. Too Dangerous... yes somethings clearly can't be practiced, but can be safely replicated and should be here and there. But the truth is those things that you never practice are either going to be intuitive actions by you are not, you lack practical experience in it, you do not know 100% as to what the outcome will be when you do it. I've had enough morons kicking at my knees in fights only to realize it didn't have the devastating effect they thought, the same with nut shots. I've been accidently eye gouged dozens of times, hell I have accidently eye gouged people 20 times more than I have ever on purpose. Enough to have a realistic expectation of what is going to happen. But there are a ton of other things I have a theoretical idea... doesn't make it bad, just doesn't make it a technique I have applied hundreds of times against a resisting opponent, 9 times out of 10 I will resort to what I know works over what I am somewhat certain will work. 2. Mainly with this, aside from learning a specific defense, is a large portion of time spent with a guy throwing the same technique at you, essentially choreography. 3. Really 3 and 5 should go together, the whole fake a knee to the groin, guy doubles over..i.e. has a predictable reaction. This is unrealistic because not everyone reacts to pain the same or is going to react in the same predetermined pattern. 4. 1 and 2 step drills are basically one guy punches, you block and counter. Rinse and Repeat, guy punching you has no intention of hitting, you have no intention of hitting full force on counter, it is just a drill to "learn instinctive reaction"... (you really only learn instinctive reaction to that particular set, i.e. guy in front of you throwing half assed lazy punch). 6. Somewhat self explanatory, while there are some things that by nature you know a defense to. There are times in every art, you are shown a technique in which you think.. "this would not work", if not then you might not be thinking critically, or hell maybe everything you are learning is something that would work. But a critical thinking person in an art might find themselves thinking about a dozen times as small female training partner applies a technique on them (this really would not work on me). Just my two cents.
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Post by Glutton4Punishment on Jun 21, 2012 15:25:15 GMT -5
Jeez, Judomofo, wall of text much? By the way, I remember you from bullshido.net as well. I've seen you post there and you had some good input. I haven't spent as much time on Y!A as a lot of the people here, so I didn't see much of you there to begin with, but I know where JW is coming from since I've been on Bullshido since 2007.
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Chef Samurai
Global Moderator
Canadian Catch Wrestling
Posts: 843
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Post by Chef Samurai on Jun 21, 2012 16:46:40 GMT -5
1. Yes, many different ways.
1a. Yes bare knuckle's too.
1b. Is your "opponent" actually trying to execute techniques against you. Yes he is trying to hurt me so I know how to defend myself from someone trying to hurt me...
1c. To a certain degree yes because certain rules ban certain moves so I don't have to worry about them just everything else.
1d. I've broken a few bones in sparring.
2. Yes that's what full contact hard sparring is.
3. Yes flow is more important than power alone because of you miss your screwed if you cant flow.
4. Probably but I don't intend to take it easy on anyone attacking me.
5. Yeah it's pretty gross lol I get on the bus and people get off because my stink
A quick checklist of unrealistic training.
1. I always punch people in the throat full force and elbows to the spine... NOT lol
2. No I like to mix it up with sparring and other drills.
3. No depending on what kind of sparring we do we wear gear and go all out like wearing a biker helmet for finger jabs to the eyes that hurt the fingers like hell if your not careful and kicks to the groin with cups but you learn how to defend well since you know you wont have those in a real fight or we will just practice regular muay thai rules or mma rules or boxing rules or whatever our sifu feels like doing that day.
4. just a bit.
5. I don't spend a lot of time doing any one thing really except what I feel like I'm doing bad.
6. No I don't play with the kids lol
good question
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