odee
Global Moderator
Kyokushin 10 years - Brazilian Jujitsu 3 years - Muay Thai 2 years.
Posts: 1,286
|
Post by odee on Aug 18, 2012 7:23:34 GMT -5
And that's what makes the question interesting Frasier. There's plenty of people claiming their ties back to Okinawa but we're interested in Karate that has no ties nor claims them. People who claim to teach "Empty Hands" but don't attempt to claim any connection back to Okinawa, a kind of Parrallel Evolution if you will.
That's why I said Possum might be onto something with Korean Karate, many of the styles dubbed Korean Karate held no ties to Shotokan or any other historical Karate but were based instead in Judo and Jujutsu, if any of those styles kept the name Karate rather than making the swap to Taekwando it might be the answer.
|
|
odee
Global Moderator
Kyokushin 10 years - Brazilian Jujitsu 3 years - Muay Thai 2 years.
Posts: 1,286
|
Post by odee on Aug 18, 2012 16:36:46 GMT -5
Double post. I'm sorry.
|
|
Chef Samurai
Global Moderator
Canadian Catch Wrestling
Posts: 843
|
Post by Chef Samurai on Aug 23, 2012 19:08:03 GMT -5
I don't think you can have karate without traces back to okinawa that would be like saying something is english even though it has no ties back to england what so ever.
or saying something is american but has no ties to america in anyway.
kinda like manga being written in america...it's not really manga just comics with an eastern influence lol only because there are no real mangaka in america though if there were they could make it but until they get real ones they will never make anything more than an imitation.
and as for taekwondo it's taekyeon's version of katate-do to karate-jutsu from my understanding and the koreans have ALWAYS been influenced by the chinese.
|
|
odee
Global Moderator
Kyokushin 10 years - Brazilian Jujitsu 3 years - Muay Thai 2 years.
Posts: 1,286
|
Post by odee on Aug 24, 2012 8:52:06 GMT -5
I'd disagree with that point Chef. Being Japanese is one of the smaller points that makes manga different. Physical arts like paintings, drawings and comics have rules that make them what they are. As long as you follow those rules you're conforming to that style. An American creating manga is still creating manga if he or she abides by those rules. In short the techniques used and the rules followed are more important than the place where the piece was created or the nationality of the person creating it.
Karate is so varied in technique, training and philosophy that the only thing that groups them together is the name that they all choose to carry. Take Goju-ryu and Shotokan for instance, the two are polar opposites regarding technique and philosophy, the only thing that groups them together is the name Karate and the ties back to Okinawa (and their link through Kyokushin).
There were Korean styles based off Jujutsu and Judo that were called Korean Karate and claimed no ties back to Okinawa. In my opinion the yes or no answer is entirely dependant on the survival of any of these "Korean Karate" did they all become Taekwando and Hapkido or do some of them still call themselves Korean Karate and claim no ties back to Okinawa?
|
|
|
Post by jwbulldogs on Aug 24, 2012 15:57:15 GMT -5
I think this is a good question. But I think the answer to the question is no. However, there are martial arts styles that do not trace back to Okinawa. The Japanese had martial arts before Okanawan Te was introduced to them. The same for Korea, they had arts before karate was taught to them. Outsider called them Korean Karate. But that is not what they called it. Many began to blend their art with karate to make certain it was still theirs culturally. Of course I believe that some did this for other reasons too. But if it is karate it traces back to Okinawa somehow. In return it traces back to China.
|
|
aaronj
Global Moderator
Yondan - Shurite Karate Jitsu, Chen Taijiquan
Posts: 116
|
Post by aaronj on Aug 26, 2012 14:05:11 GMT -5
The best way to respond to this question would be to take an individual system of karate and put it in the 'hot seat' so to speak. There are hundreds upon hundreds of systems of 'karate' the world over, and the only way to give an appropriate response would be to know which one in particular is in question, at the time.
That being said, much of karate or any empty hand system, of Japan, Okinawa, Korea, and China all originated in their respective countries, with a blending from their neighbors. The water is brackish, and there are too many details and semantics to really argue anything other than "is the particular martial art worth a damn". Good question though...
|
|
Chef Samurai
Global Moderator
Canadian Catch Wrestling
Posts: 843
|
Post by Chef Samurai on Sept 5, 2012 2:09:06 GMT -5
odee- so as long as I follow the rule for french cooking no matter what ingredients I use it's still french like kim chi tacos??? lmfao thats a joke right??? even if I make the beef in a french reduction and all sorts of other things it will never be french. same with putting american cheese & hot peppers on a cheese burger and calling it "brittish style" doesn;t make it brittish lol and as for karate having so many varied techniques thats true much like kung fu there are many different style and some have almost nothing to do with eachother (compare motobo kempo and shotokan karate lol) and as long as they follow the precepts of okinawan Te they are karate much like if a style follows precepts of japanese Ju it's jujutsu and even though kano said judo isn't jujutsu it really is the only difference is it adds do or way of life instead of just being a set of techniques that most jujutsu is unless it was influenced by do to. do in karate seems to originate in the shaolin temples circa 1700s from the master pechin takahara so I guess any style influenced by the shaolin and focuses on the way of life could be considered do and this is a big part of Te which is the real okinawan art.
|
|
odee
Global Moderator
Kyokushin 10 years - Brazilian Jujitsu 3 years - Muay Thai 2 years.
Posts: 1,286
|
Post by odee on Sept 5, 2012 8:46:48 GMT -5
The ingredients would be part of the rules you dope. If you're using different ingredients you aren't following the rules. If the only thing you're doing differently is being Canadian and making it in Canada you're still making the same French dish, you're just a Canadian making that French dish in Canada. Otherwise you'd have to admit you can't possibly be doing Jeet Kune Do because you aren't Chinese/American and aren't in America.
|
|
Chef Samurai
Global Moderator
Canadian Catch Wrestling
Posts: 843
|
Post by Chef Samurai on Sept 6, 2012 1:31:17 GMT -5
so then if it doesn't have any roots to okinawan ingredients which in martial arts it would be techniques, concepts & principles then it can't be related to karate could it?
or would it be karate flavoured lol
and I do real jkd because my lineage has a direct link to bruce lee unbroken and 5 of his students that learned from him at a different periods and got different concepts & ideas from him and one actually only learned wing chun & boxing from him and was one of his earliest students.
|
|
odee
Global Moderator
Kyokushin 10 years - Brazilian Jujitsu 3 years - Muay Thai 2 years.
Posts: 1,286
|
Post by odee on Sept 6, 2012 7:23:13 GMT -5
There's the hitch, so many people have taken their own concepts and ideals and made their own Karate from them that linage is really the only thing that bonds Karate back to its roots. If I never learned Karate and learned something more along the lines of Silat or Muay Thai and just started calling it Karate it's entirely possible that I could be using a style that is identical to a fully recognised Karate style and probably closer to the original ideals and concepts than a lot of other fully recognised Karate. Would it actually be Karate though?
|
|