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Post by Glutton4Punishment on Aug 4, 2012 22:45:51 GMT -5
I know that that's the birthplace of Karate, but just out of curiosity since Okinawa became a part of Japan has any form of Karate come about that wasn't actually tied to Okinawan Te but still been known as Karate? If so, what styles do not trace back?
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Post by Glutton4Punishment on Aug 7, 2012 1:39:28 GMT -5
This seems like a good one for Ko. You around, Ko?
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odee
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Post by odee on Aug 8, 2012 17:09:06 GMT -5
It's possible some have phoney linages and have survived because they teach good stuff but for the most part it is Karate BECAUSE it can trace back to Okinawa.
Take Kyokushin for example, Oyama could have called it Kenpo, Jujitsu, Kickboxing or Judo because he had provable linage in all of those but decided it fit better as a Karate.
I mean if you define what Karate is someone could take Silat or Savate and label it Karate and you would be learning some pretty similar stuff, especially considering how different some Karate styles are to others so my belief is that the main reason for labelling something Karate is to claim some connections back to Okinawa.
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Chef Samurai
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Post by Chef Samurai on Aug 8, 2012 17:34:59 GMT -5
he should have called it kyokushin taekwondo lol
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odee
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Post by odee on Aug 8, 2012 23:26:55 GMT -5
Oyama never learned any Korean martial arts. On top of that he wasn't exactly brimming with home-country pride when he made Kyokushin and applied for Japanese citizenship.
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Chef Samurai
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Post by Chef Samurai on Aug 9, 2012 13:30:49 GMT -5
theres a lot of speculation but with the axe kick & suicide kick and all I now officially call it kyokushin taekwondo lol
what kata are the axe kick & suicide kick in btw?
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odee
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Post by odee on Aug 9, 2012 23:52:18 GMT -5
You're asking the wrong style about where moves came from. We've stolen from almost everyone and if we haven't stolen from a particularlar style it's because they do nothing particularly unique and successful. We stole the Thai Roundhouse Kicks, we stole Kenpo forms, Boxing stances and many Japanese Jujutsu throws and locks. It's possible we stole the axe and rolling kicks from Taekwando but from what I've heard it's also entirely possible we stole them from Monkey or Crane Kung Fu or Muay Thai. Oyama was never a guy to say "It's not part of the syllabus" if it worked Oyama praised it.
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odee
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Post by odee on Aug 10, 2012 0:53:41 GMT -5
Possum just dropped an interesting point. Korean Karate - That's apparently what they called many schools of Taekwando before they settled on it's current name, so if there are any schools of Korean Karate that didn't make the change or are dissatisfied with current Taekwando and have changed back maybe they're the way to search?
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Post by kokoro on Aug 10, 2012 20:23:59 GMT -5
to the best of my knowledge all styles of karate can be traced back to okinawa, and then china.
karate styles are based in kata. it is said karate begins and ends with kata and from the kata i researched and collected names of which is just over a hundred they are all traced back to okinawa and most into china
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odee
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Post by odee on Aug 11, 2012 18:09:19 GMT -5
It's also said Karate begins and ends in respect. defense. speed. timing. politeness. one-hit.
Probably a million others as well. Some of the Korean Karate didn't come from Shotokan, some actually came from Judo and Jujitsu.
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Chef Samurai
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Post by Chef Samurai on Aug 15, 2012 0:24:12 GMT -5
I say when the japanese taught the koreans they learned something from the koreans like a 2 way trade not just a one way giving. and by do you mean if it works do it as n even if you are doing say french savate and it works for you you can call it kyokushin karate even if you remove all oyama added? or are there protocols or what? here's an interesting article on kyokushin from a tkd site but it's not finished yet taekwondobible.com/discussion/compare/kyokusin-korean.html
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odee
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Post by odee on Aug 15, 2012 2:36:36 GMT -5
That's an interesting question but I think the spirit of never giving up and toughness are the only things Oyama put absolutes on. If the whole syllabus became obsolete I'm willing to bet a living Oyama would tested it to death to make absolutely sure it was useless then would have have searched for new stuff to fill it up again.
PS the article is a bit Bullshitish. Oyama's first martial art was Eighteen Hands Kenpo, a Chinese martial art, his next was Queensbury Boxing. Kyokushin tournaments feature a lot of head-kicks because striking the head is the fastest way of knocking people out and since punches to the face are a foul. When that's the case the importance of head kicks increases, on top of that if he'd watched a full Kyokushin tournament he'd notice competitors keep to a distance that almost all Taekwando students loath, one that full-contact Karate and Muay Thai students favour. Oyama himself was mostly a puncher. Kyokushin was built around Samurai principals and Oyama was calling it Budo Karate at the time when Taekwando was being developed, Oyama chose Japanese ethics and an Okinawan name for his style over his homeland's ethics and Taekwando. Oyama's kids hold dual citizenship for both Korea and Japan, they're not just Korean. Oyama did this so they'd have a choice, the Japanese aren't particularly friendly to outsiders after all.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2012 18:05:07 GMT -5
There a few styles in Australia that have a weak link back to Okinawa. How many generations removed would you say makes a style really not Okinawan?
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odee
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Post by odee on Aug 16, 2012 20:59:39 GMT -5
I don't think generations removed is the deciding factor in this question, we're talking about styles that have and claim no ties back to Okinawa but still label themselves Karate.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2012 22:11:57 GMT -5
Define how you can claim ties to Okinawa? Master studied in Okinawa? Taught by a Okinawan? Wouldn't all true Karate have a tie to Okinawa? There is a Karate school in Sydney that is an Australian school with no ties to any organization in Japan or Okinawa. But it teaches Shotokan so therefore I would say it has a tie to Okinawa via the history of Shotokan and its birth from Okinawan Te. It has a tie no matter how weak it is. Its hard not to have some tie to Okinawa unless what you teach has no link to Karate styles with a historical link to Okinawa.
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