Chef Samurai
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Post by Chef Samurai on Aug 13, 2012 14:01:27 GMT -5
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odee
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Kyokushin 10 years - Brazilian Jujitsu 3 years - Muay Thai 2 years.
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Post by odee on Aug 13, 2012 18:55:23 GMT -5
Why do strikes come as such a shock to you Chef? Brazilian Jiu jitsu is supposed to be a return from Judo to something along the lines of the original Japanese Jujutsu, a form of self defense. Striking is one of the best ways to make sure an aggressor doesn't want a second go, striking is a better form of phsycological attack than submission holds in my opinion, that's why people call it a 'beat down' rather than a 'lock-down'. On top of that Royce used Thai style thigh kicks and hooking heel kicks to begin his takedowns in all his MMA matches.
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Chef Samurai
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Post by Chef Samurai on Aug 13, 2012 21:03:18 GMT -5
the same reason people are shocked when they find out about ground fighting in muay thai, karate, taekwondo or kung fu and when they find out there is striking in judo, wrestling, shui jiao or sambo, it's just not common knowledge.
all styles I've seen so far (except a few I wont name) include all aspects of fighting it's just the athletes who care more for the sport than the style learn it they leave out everything that's not related to the sport because they think judo is a throwing sport or bjj is a submission sport or karate is a striking sport but in reality they are complete self defence are when you get past the sport PART (see how I capitalized PART?).
I honestly don't think there is such thing as a striking style or a standing style or a ground style or a standing style only rules that prevent you from doing any of them, however... most styles tend to specialize in one or two areas but are lacking in the others but that's up to the practitioner to train those skills because they are there but they have never been refined by a master of that part of fighting because they tended to specialize in another but they can change that if they chose to by training those skills with someone who is a master of them.
Like a jiujitero would learn a lot about striking from training their strikes against a nak muay and the nak muay would learn a lot about ground fighting against a jiujitero but they wouldn't necessarily have to cross train each others style, they could just work together & try and teach each other as you go along and try to adapt accordingly.
I'm just used to people saying bjj is this or muay thai is this because someone trained this for so many years but different lineages do different things even if they teach the same style.
I like the lock & beat approach it seems to include more variables than just a lock down or beat down.
...........................................................rant over..........................................................
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odee
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Post by odee on Aug 14, 2012 5:09:45 GMT -5
That's a short, poor excuse for a rant. I don't think it's sport's doing. I think the specialisation is more due to teachers catering to dead-weight students because helping the struggler is the nice thing to do. I mentioned once that there are three types of Mixed Martial Artists and pointed out that a Mixed Martial Artist who learns from one teacher is going to be held back unless the teacher puts extra efforts into him. Because there are other people in his class who can't keep up a promising student will be held back, he won't even become a jack of all trades, he'll be limited in all areas because of the students who can't get their heads around rookie moves and stop the class from progressing. Yes, I'm speaking as the guy who struggles in the ground based submission area of my martial arts.
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Chef Samurai
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Post by Chef Samurai on Aug 15, 2012 0:11:33 GMT -5
same with any style really just like training under 5 or 6 different karate teachers over the years will show you all the aspects of the style instead what one or 2 specialized in.
It's the popularity of sports doing I think in the end the athlete who wins the most is considered the best by the lamens meanwhile he may do much worse under different circumstances against the same person just like how randy couture said he didn't want to fight james toney in a boxing match because toney was a better puncher and he would lose against him because the variables are way different.
I think you should try to be a master of one trade and a jack of all others instead of a jack of all trades and a master of none or a master of one trade and a jack of none others so you have direction and a place to start where your best but you shouldn't ignore all other aspects of fighting like ranges and stuff!
And your only struggling on your kyokushin ground skills because you spent so much time ignoring them much like I'm terrible off my back because wrestling for 10 years I avoided being on my back like the plague because in the sport you lose when you are put on your back but in a real fight that doesn't happen it keeps going just like kyokushin teaches you to stay off the ground because you lose the fight when you go there in a fight but in a real fight it keeps going sorry to tell you.
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odee
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Post by odee on Aug 15, 2012 4:49:26 GMT -5
There are non-competitive schools and styles with the same problem. It's not the athletic preference it's the lack of time spent covering more advanced techniques because dead weights need help.
Why are you sorry to tell me that? My ground fighting skills are fine, my ability to hit without room saves my ass. My ground based submission skills suck because my first instinct is to strike openings rather than slip a hand into them and find a leverage point. I've been trained to fight on the ground since I was a noobie little red belt and the only two losses I suffered in MMA were to a guy who was quite simply my better in all areas of striking, so much so that I was still struck down when I caught him in a takedown and another to a guy who won most of the tournament matches inside a minute by knock-out, the guy who has battled for under five minutes across five rounds will always beat the guy who won on a combination of points decisions, knock-outs and tap-outs for a total fight time of twelve minutes across five rounds.
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Post by couchpotato on Aug 18, 2012 7:11:25 GMT -5
Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is NOT a return to the self defense of Japanese Jujutsu. It is a deviation of Judo that evolved to place emphasis on the ground. Authentic Judo has all the self defense aspects of the videos shown and more. I have never seen BJJ (if I am mistaken, enlighten me)defense against weapons like handguns and knives.....Judo does in the katas.
BJJ came from Judo and as such true Gracie Jiu-Jitsu has as much self defense as Judo did at that time when it went to Brazil. Judo has more when you study the Kodokan Goshin Jutsu kata which was DEVELOPED in 1956 through the influence of Kenji Tomiki who was a 8th dan in Aikido and a 8th dan in Judo. There is also a strong Shotokan influence in Judo's striking due to the friendship between the respective founders.
Authentic Judo has much more than BJJ if it is taught in the traditional manner and curriculum. Sadly a lot of Judo today is taught for sport and the Olympic rules. Similar to how BJJ is taught for grappling competitions and MMA. This limits them both as self defense.
As far as I am concerned, sporting contests and MMA are destroying Judo as well as real Gracie Jiu-Jitsu and Karate styles like Shotokan and Kyokushin. What we see today in most Judo dojos today is not what Kano Jigoro wanted as well as what we see in Shotokan and Kyokushin dojos would anger Gichin Funakoshi and Mas Oyama. They were not created/founded to be styles for integration in MMA or sporting contests. They were to be martial arts, martial ways and self defense.
Dead weights? Ever thought of helping them achieve your level? Stop whinging that they are not up to your supposed level (your a dead weight to someone so remember that) and help them. You will refine your basics and then later will have someone to spar against at a level closer to yours.
And stop thinking that Kyokushin and BJJ are just for fighting rounds, this cheapens their use and greatness as martial arts.
And never forget all that BJJ is came from Judo
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odee
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Post by odee on Aug 18, 2012 17:14:53 GMT -5
Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is NOT a return to the self defense of Japanese Jujutsu. It is a deviation of Judo that evolved to place emphasis on the ground. Authentic Judo has all the self defense aspects of the videos shown and more. I have never seen BJJ (if I am mistaken, enlighten me)defense against weapons like handguns and knives.....Judo does in the katas. In kata doesn't count for crap until it's in you, until you can pick it apart and use it at a moment's notice you don't have it. Brazilian Jujitsu was a return to making your opponent submit rather than Kano's final rule-set of just pinning your opponent. BJJ came from Judo and as such true Gracie Jiu-Jitsu has as much self defense as Judo did at that time when it went to Brazil. Judo has more when you study the Kodokan Goshin Jutsu kata which was DEVELOPED in 1956 through the influence of Kenji Tomiki who was a 8th dan in Aikido and a 8th dan in Judo. There is also a strong Shotokan influence in Judo's striking due to the friendship between the respective founders. Authentic Judo has much more than BJJ if it is taught in the traditional manner and curriculum. Sadly a lot of Judo today is taught for sport and the Olympic rules. Similar to how BJJ is taught for grappling competitions and MMA. This limits them both as self defense. As far as I am concerned, sporting contests and MMA are destroying Judo as well as real Gracie Jiu-Jitsu and Karate styles like Shotokan and Kyokushin. What we see today in most Judo dojos today is not what Kano Jigoro wanted as well as what we see in Shotokan and Kyokushin dojos would anger Gichin Funakoshi and Mas Oyama. They were not created/founded to be styles for integration in MMA or sporting contests. They were to be martial arts, martial ways and self defense. Don't talk arse. Judo was created for the sport and physical education aspect. Without that it's simply Jujutsu all over again with no reason for having changed. Oyama was all about the competition, he wasn't some stuffy old git who was high on the fumes of the past he wanted to get the most the law would allow out of his style at any given time and encouraged his students to compete in anything that was avaliable to them. Dead weights? Ever thought of helping them achieve your level? Stop whinging that they are not up to your supposed level (your a dead weight to someone so remember that) and help them. You will refine your basics and then later will have someone to spar against at a level closer to yours. I do help them and I already pointed out where I slow others up. I'll also point out that I practice at home and continue attending the novice classes to strengthen the foundations for those weak areas rather than slow my classmates down. I train three and four times as hard as the others so I can keep up. And stop thinking that Kyokushin and BJJ are just for fighting rounds, this cheapens their use and greatness as martial arts. And never forget all that BJJ is came from Judo Kyokushin was developed around fighting, particularly fighting other martial artists. Since street fights are illegal and it takes a real skill to get a dojo challenge rather than just thrown out and filed for a restraining order challenging other martial artists in contests is one of the best ways of staying true to what it's creator made it for.
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Chef Samurai
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Post by Chef Samurai on Aug 21, 2012 17:25:23 GMT -5
the kata is the style lol if it's not in the kata it was added after...
kano only made throwing & pinning more promionent because all the unskilled throwers in kosen competitions would pull guard and basically lay & pray and kano didn't want that either.
Judo was NOT created as a sport & education curriculum it was adapted to one much like what itsou did to karate.
Oyama hated that some people werent learning how to punch peoples faces in or how to ground fight and there are 2 types of dojos oyama dojos and kyokushin dojos and oyama dojos are more inline with what he wanted than with what kyokushin turned out to be.
same with shotokai dojos are much more inline with what funokoshi wanted than what shotokan turned into.
kyokushin was developed by fighting american soldiers who were trained to kill mostly then turned to a sport after he died but oyama karate dojos still uphold the tradition of his traditional form for self defence.
so everyone is wrong lol xp
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