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Post by The Last Airbender on Sept 5, 2012 21:29:48 GMT -5
Jesus didn't modify the Sabbath. That is a bad misinterpretation. Yes he healed the man on the Sabbath. He has the Authority to do so since it is His day. Healing on the Sabbath the religous community saw it as being wrong or unlawful. But Jesus was doing something good by healing than man. Therefore to shut the mouths of those that wanted to accuse him he mentioned that he was doing good. The example of helping a man stuck in the ditch stopped them from their judgmental comments concerning Him healing someone on the sabbath. Jesus didn't come to take away the Law "Torah". He came to fulfill it. Resting on the Sabbath is not because God was tired. It was because he finished His creation. He set this day aside and made it Holy. It became a Holy Convocation (a called assembly) "a day of worship with like believers. that is true and now for my rant ahh yes the Sabbath, the only commandment that starts out with the world remember. the ten commandments were the only law written in stone. stone representing permanent. hence the term written in stone. no where in the Bible does it state the ten commandments are obsolete infact the opposite. Matthew 5:17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. the Sabbath was changed by empire constantin to sunday and not in the Bible in order (for lack of a better term) pagons into the church since that was there holyday and yes i probably spell that empires name wrong and why is it of all the ten commandments the sabbath is the only law christians break break. or for that matter when people claim the law is no longer valid. if the law is no longer valid then why stop at that commandment, if its no longer valid it means i can steal, kill people, comment adultery. but no its always the sabbath commandment it seems i'll do the clean meat rant later. i dont know if you guys can handle both in the same day lol Yes ma'am. The Council of Nicaea in about 300 AD. Same time they took out a lot of the books of the Bible such as, The Gospel of Judas, Gospel of Mary, Gospel of the Hebrews, the Book of Enoch, Acts of Solomon, and many others, and ruined the Gnostic roots of the religion. Not to insult anyone's beliefs but those damn Romans really changed the roots of it. Hence the Islamic tenant that man corrupted the scripture and G-d sent the Qur'an as the final, unaltered word to "sum it all up." In short, the Romans did to the Bible with their Council what Kokoro just did to the English language with his grammar. ;D
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Post by kokoro on Sept 5, 2012 22:12:38 GMT -5
my english is perfect its the rest of the world that is wrong. its not my fault you are all behind my superior knowledge of the language as well as my spell... don't get me started on the webster diction they screwed that book up as well. but for your convenience and the fact i have spell check set to that dictionary i will use it rather then the correct spelling which only i know
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Post by jwbulldogs on Sept 6, 2012 0:40:15 GMT -5
I was wondering when Kokoro was going to chime in especially since I mentioned the Sabbath and clean and unclean foods....lol
If you want to bring up history and what is and what wasn't I;m sure you are aware that the prophet Muhammad was illiterate. He said is was unlawful for the Koran to ever be written down. Everything about the Koran was given to them by what he said he had in a dream. Then it was passed along by word of mouth. It wasn't until after his death that influences from an outside culture, if I remember correctly the French got them to record the Koran in writing. After his death they were only left with the interpretations of the scribes which changed all of the time from one scribe to another. There was a disagreement as to who would lead the place of Mohammed. One group wanted a son another group had another choice. The son wasn't chosen and this began the split that allowed the Koran to be written. The French documented everything during the Ottoman Empire, which is part of the growth of Islam. That alone would say that the Koran is corrupt since you like that term. If the original prophet made it known that it was unlawful to write thing down. Now they justify it by saying the prohibition was temporary. That means something changed. Either God didn't want it written or he does want it written.
As I stated before God is not a trinity. He is mono. He is one. The Godhead being represented by the Father, Son, and Spirit all represent the deity of God. God is divine.
It is amazing that one will call the book corrupt whose story started before the origin of Islam. Mohammed was born some 600 years after the death of Christ. After his religious experience he begins to tell a story that is different concerning Abraham and his chosen son. Christian and Jews both agree that Isaac is the promised and favored son. Ismael was not favored, but god gave Abraham a promise that He would still make a great nation out of Ishmael.
Regarding the other Books like the Book of Enoch. The Book of Judas the one that betrayed Jesus has a Book. I have them in my home right now. Just because a book was written it doesn't mean they were to be include into the Bible. They are historical books.
It is odd to me that Islam is supposed to have the 10 commandments but do not keep the Sabbath. I agree 100% with Kokoro that it starts with Remember the Sabbath Day and to Keep it Holy. It was written with the finger of God. It remains for ever. God does not change.
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Post by The Last Airbender on Sept 6, 2012 14:31:51 GMT -5
G-d does not change but man changes His word. Keeping the Sabbath means different things to different people. Muslims believe G-d instructed us to keep it Holy. Not to rest and refuse work. There's a difference. That book was written about 100-300 years after Moses died.. the original Ten Commandments written by G-d only said "Remember the Sabbath and keep it Holy" it said nothing about lack of work. That provision came up later in Exodus and was only known by word of mouth and written down some time later. Thus, from the perspective of a Muslim, when the Books were altered by man and evolved over time, this was a misinterpretation of the Sabbath, the day on which G-d ceased His work and was complete with it all--not rested. rest implies the need to recuperate. G-d does not need to rest.
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Post by The Last Airbender on Sept 6, 2012 14:33:36 GMT -5
Also, the Book of Judas states that Judas was SELECTED by Jesus to betray him, for Jesus had to die for man's sins. Thus, Judas was the only one Jesus could trust with such a monumental task and therefore he was one of the truest believers in Christ.
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Post by jwbulldogs on Sept 6, 2012 15:07:48 GMT -5
Judas was chosen true. Even the evil for the day is chosen. You have to choose a devil to do the devil's job. The thief was chosen because he could be tempted with the money. He did exactly what anyone would expect a thief to do. Not everything the Judas did was wrong. But I'm glad he betrayed my Savior. So that Jesus could fulfill what was written of Him long before he manifested Himself in the Flesh. Judas knew that he betrayed the innocent. That is why he later no longer wanted the blood money. His guilt got the best of him. But instead of repenting he took his own life. He was the son of perdition. Jesus knew whom He had chosen just like He knew that Peter would deny Him 3 times.
The Koran was written how many years after the death of the prophet? Why was it forbidden to be written down if you were only supposed to obey the words from the Koran? Who changed the words and allowed it to be written? How many times did it change before it was written? How was it determined. That's a pretty bad generalization that the original written by God did not include not to work on the day the God Himself consecrated to be Holy saying six days shall thou labor and do all of thy work. The same day that the Lord didn't rain bread from heaven that the people called manna and said not to gather it on the Sabbath. Why is there no history of the koran before the death of its prophet, but it partially attempts to follow the Old Testament which had written documentation long before the birth of the prophet? Why does the koran contradict the written scrolls from which it took its origin? Why does many of the customs of the koran compliment the pagan culture of the people of that region before it was overthrown by Islam? Those people worshiped the moon until the converted to Islam. But Islam kept the pagan customs. Who wrote the Koran? How many people wrote it? It wasn't the personal scribes of Mohammed.
You should understand that the things written in the Book of Judas doesn't pertain to our salvation. It is just a historical book written about Judas.
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Post by The Last Airbender on Sept 6, 2012 15:42:36 GMT -5
Judas was chosen true. Even the evil for the day is chosen. You have to choose a devil to do the devil's job. The thief was chosen because he could be tempted with the money. He did exactly what anyone would expect a thief to do. Not everything the Judas did was wrong. But I'm glad he betrayed my Savior. So that Jesus could fulfill what was written of Him long before he manifested Himself in the Flesh. Judas knew that he betrayed the innocent. That is why he later no longer wanted the blood money. His guilt got the best of him. But instead of repenting he took his own life. He was the son of perdition. Jesus knew whom He had chosen just like He knew that Peter would deny Him 3 times. The Koran was written how many years after the death of the prophet? Why was it forbidden to be written down if you were only supposed to obey the words from the Koran? Who changed the words and allowed it to be written? How many times did it change before it was written? How was it determined. That's a pretty bad generalization that the original written by God did not include not to work on the day the God Himself consecrated to be Holy saying six days shall thou labor and do all of thy work. The same day that the Lord didn't rain bread from heaven that the people called manna and said not to gather it on the Sabbath. Why is there no history of the koran before the death of its prophet, but it partially attempts to follow the Old Testament which had written documentation long before the birth of the prophet? Why does the koran contradict the written scrolls from which it took its origin? Why does many of the customs of the koran compliment the pagan culture of the people of that region before it was overthrown by Islam? Those people worshiped the moon until the converted to Islam. But Islam kept the pagan customs. Who wrote the Koran? How many people wrote it? It wasn't the personal scribes of Mohammed. You should understand that the things written in the Book of Judas doesn't pertain to our salvation. It is just a historical book written about Judas. Oh let's not get into pagan history. Christianity is littered with it. Christamas, Easter, entering the House of the Man bearing water, the golden bull calf, Noah's flood, etc. With that aside for another day, i do not know where you got this history of the Qur'an. Because in one hadith, the Prophet said, “I leave among you two things of high estimation: the Book of God and my Family.” The word (in Arabic) that he uses is the word al-kitab. Al-kitab signifies a single and united entity and does not apply to a text which is scattered and not collected. Only a few scholars disagree on the fact that the Book was compiled in Muhammad's lifetime. The Sabbath signifies the completion of creation. It therefore has no evening. Have you noticed that in the creation account the Sabbath has no night? His work was complete. The earth would endure forever. It is stable, secure, and constantly upheld and “tended” to by its Creator. It also awaits the great eschatological Sabbath of the Kingdom of G-d when the earth will burst forth in full flower, free from despoiling evil. Then there will be no night. Genesis does not speak of G-d “resting” (nuah) on the seventh day. On the 7th day G-d “stopped” or “ceased” because the work was done. The verb is sabat, from which the word “Sabbath” comes. If we both agree that the commandments come directly from G-d because of them being written in stone on Mt. Sinai, and we, for the sake of argument, regard neither the Bible nor the Qur'an as truth (since they were printed by humans) then the Ten Commandments are our only evidence of G-d's intention.
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Post by jwbulldogs on Sept 6, 2012 16:09:15 GMT -5
Christmas and easter are not Christian. They are completely pagan. There are many that call themselves Christian that participate in those pagan customs. Those customs entered into because of Constantine and the church at Rome and pagans "converting" to so called Christianity. I say so-called since they compromised the Word of God to include pagan customs such as the Winter festival Soliste (sun worshippers) or easter the goddess estre the goddess of fertility that they tied in with the Passover.
We don't know Christ birthday. It wasn't recorded. It wasn't even a custom that the Jewish people to celebrate a birth. A man born of a woman is of a few days and full of trouble. However it was a custom to celebrate the death of a great man.
In regard to the Sabbath. The evening and the morning constitute a day. They were instructed not to gather anything after the evening or that it would rot.
I do regard the Bible as truth. Yes it is written by man, But by Holy men that were inspired and move by God to write. God has placed His spirit in me to be able to discern. He has given men gifts. I've seen his miracles. I've seen the Lame walk that was never supposed to walk again. I'm not talking about what people see on TV. I'm talking about those that I know personally. I've seen a variety of healings. I have my personal experiences. I know what is like to experience what took place on the day of Pentecost. I know those that were dead and yet they are alive to tell their story. I know what it is to be a miracle. The doctors have no explanation.
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Post by The Last Airbender on Sept 9, 2012 17:21:12 GMT -5
Christmas and easter are not Christian. They are completely pagan. There are many that call themselves Christian that participate in those pagan customs. Those customs entered into because of Constantine and the church at Rome and pagans "converting" to so called Christianity. I say so-called since they compromised the Word of God to include pagan customs such as the Winter festival Soliste (sun worshippers) or easter the goddess estre the goddess of fertility that they tied in with the Passover. We don't know Christ birthday. It wasn't recorded. It wasn't even a custom that the Jewish people to celebrate a birth. A man born of a woman is of a few days and full of trouble. However it was a custom to celebrate the death of a great man. In regard to the Sabbath. The evening and the morning constitute a day. They were instructed not to gather anything after the evening or that it would rot. I do regard the Bible as truth. Yes it is written by man, But by Holy men that were inspired and move by God to write. God has placed His spirit in me to be able to discern. He has given men gifts. I've seen his miracles. I've seen the Lame walk that was never supposed to walk again. I'm not talking about what people see on TV. I'm talking about those that I know personally. I've seen a variety of healings. I have my personal experiences. I know what is like to experience what took place on the day of Pentecost. I know those that were dead and yet they are alive to tell their story. I know what it is to be a miracle. The doctors have no explanation. SORRY FOR THE MODIFY i meant to hit quote and reply, but missed it and hit modify post... and they let me be a mod.. my post supposed to say: I doubt you not. I just see G-d's word as being fulfilled by the revelations of the Qur'an. Also, i also regard the Bible as a Holy word of G-d, as all the Muslims do, but i was saying for "arguments sake" it wasn't in order to narrow down the evidence straws.
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Post by youxia on Sept 9, 2012 17:31:02 GMT -5
Airbender, I'm not trying to demean your chosen faith, but have you ever spoken to anyone who could explain why the prophet had sex with a nine year old? Or how Islam condones violence and killing of non-beleievers? I showed my Muslim friends these quotes and asked them about this recently, and neither could give a reasonable explanation- O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - 5:54
Sura 4:89 “seize them and slay them wherever you find them: and in any case take no friends or helpers from their ranks.” wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Killings_Ordered_or_Supported_by_Muhammadwww.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?wwwI don't know how accurate this stuff is, but if it's true it's quite disturbing. Do you know any Imam you could ask about this? My friends are sunni and say it's an absolutley peaceful religion, but hearing these things I'm not so sure.
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Post by The Last Airbender on Sept 9, 2012 19:26:06 GMT -5
Airbender, I'm not trying to demean your chosen faith, but have you ever spoken to anyone who could explain why the prophet had sex with a nine year old? Or how Islam condones violence and killing of non-beleievers? I showed my Muslim friends these quotes and asked them about this recently, and neither could give a reasonable explanation- O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - 5:54
Sura 4:89 “seize them and slay them wherever you find them: and in any case take no friends or helpers from their ranks.” wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Killings_Ordered_or_Supported_by_Muhammadwww.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?wwwI don't know how accurate this stuff is, but if it's true it's quite disturbing. Do you know any Imam you could ask about this? My friends are sunni and say it's an absolutley peaceful religion, but hearing these things I'm not so sure. The Prophet took a wife, who, at the time was nine. but in ancient cultures, especially the middle eastern ones, this wasn't really a big deal and was kind of common. while we see this as a deplorable act today, the people then viewed it as the norm. people then weren't concerned with having a childhood but more so with ability to reproduce and work. also, in their culture at the time, if the father allowed it, it was legal. and her father allowed it. Sura 5:54 says: "O you who have believed, whoever of you should revert from his religion - Allah will bring forth [in place of them] a people He will love and who will love Him [who are] humble toward the believers, powerful against the disbelievers; they strive in the cause of Allah and do not fear the blame of a critic. That is the favor of Allah ; He bestows it upon whom He wills. And Allah is all-Encompassing and Knowing" So i don't know quite where you got the Christian and Jews thing Sura 4:89 says: "They wish you would disbelieve as they disbelieved so you would be alike. So do not take from among them allies until they emigrate for the cause of Allah . But if they turn away, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them and take not from among them any ally or helper." it is talking about people who try to force you to disbelieve in G-d, not just random disbelievers. the very next line says "So if they remove themselves from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not made for you a cause [for fighting] against them." Sura 4:90 this basically says fight to defend Islam but do not attack or fight anyone who will not fight back. It's basically a command of self-defense to have the freedom to worship how you want.
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Chef Samurai
Global Moderator
Canadian Catch Wrestling
Posts: 843
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Post by Chef Samurai on Sept 9, 2012 22:08:36 GMT -5
apparently you also have to be killed without mercy if you are an muslim who converted to another religion.
and if you pissed off mohamad back in the day he would have you killed because you can't mess with the prophet lol
I don't have anything against islam either but I keep hearing so much negative about it like honor killings and their treatment of other religions can be a bit harsh like the beheading of jews that happened in my city was pretty intense.
and if it's ok for people from a religion to kill people who try to convert them shouldn't the pagans have been able to kill the muslims for trying to convert them to begin with??? or is it only ok for muslims to kill other people for trying to convert them but they are free to convert other people?
I have nothing against the religion itself just the actions of the people speak much louder than the words in any book same with how the catholics pretty much killed the native americans in the name of god and whiped out all extant civilizations in europe much like the muslims extincted the persina civilization & retarded the hindu civilization.
but I guess that's more work of people claiming to be part of those religions but clearly didn't follow it's tenants.
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Post by The Last Airbender on Sept 10, 2012 5:05:03 GMT -5
apparently you also have to be killed without mercy if you are an muslim who converted to another religion. and if you pissed off mohamad back in the day he would have you killed because you can't mess with the prophet lol I don't have anything against islam either but I keep hearing so much negative about it like honor killings and their treatment of other religions can be a bit harsh like the beheading of jews that happened in my city was pretty intense. and if it's ok for people from a religion to kill people who try to convert them shouldn't the pagans have been able to kill the muslims for trying to convert them to begin with??? or is it only ok for muslims to kill other people for trying to convert them but they are free to convert other people? I have nothing against the religion itself just the actions of the people speak much louder than the words in any book same with how the catholics pretty much killed the native americans in the name of god and whiped out all extant civilizations in europe much like the muslims extincted the persina civilization & retarded the hindu civilization. but I guess that's more work of people claiming to be part of those religions but clearly didn't follow it's tenants. Well by those standards the Jews are evil for they've done to the Palestinians, the Palestinians are evil for what they've done to the Jews, the Protestants are evil for the IRA and the KKK, Catholics are too for the sex scandal, inquisition, 9 crusades and the indigenous populations of the Americas... Most Muslims are law abiding, decent, nice, citizens. I wonder if there's some sort of media bias on the topic....? no one condemns the Christians for the Book of Leviticus, Deuteronomy and Exodus, which demand the killing of drunken teenagers, homosexuals, those who work on the Sabbath, and those who disrespect their parents.
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Post by youxia on Sept 10, 2012 10:13:26 GMT -5
Good answers, thanks. But I really can't get with the idea that since it was the norm then it was okay, I mean she was an innocent little girl. That just can't be right.
And I agree with Chef on this point, Most the muslims I know are good people, but I heard this line about how Christians and Jews are only allowed to live alongside Muslims if they don't preach and pay fines.
And I heard this thing where a poet slanders the prophet and he orders her execution, "Uqba said, “But who will look after my children, O Muhammad?” [Muhammad’s reply] “Hell.” The man was put to death. "
I think some of these things are from hadiths, so I'm not sure if they are widley accepted, as I think some Muslims ignore them completley. But since there seems to be so much killing mentioned, when my friends say it's a religion of peace, I'm not sure if they don't know what's up, or I don't.
And the bad things christians or palestinians have done doesn't really have anything to do with Islam, of course these things should be remebered and discussed, but if we are discussing Islam, let's discuss Islam.
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Post by jwbulldogs on Sept 10, 2012 11:02:47 GMT -5
Just to add to what was said. Many cultures considered it acceptable for an adult middle age man to marry a preadolescence female. It was common practice all over the world. It was even practiced in the US but maybe not a 9 year old. Life expectancy were different back then and the young girls had to marry young. The men married after they had established themselves in order to take care of a family. There are still a few culture around today that allow older men to marry young girls.
As far as killing Jew/Christians etc you have extremist groups that do not represent all Muslims that have extreme views that does not coincide with what the majority of Islamic cultures. Just like Christians, Jews, etc throughout history have had extremists or Zealots that have gone through extreme measures to to further their cause or what the believed was correct. Often they were oppressive or cruel.
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