|
Post by shurite99 on Nov 10, 2012 3:06:11 GMT -5
Were karate and kobudo once the same thing?
Karate means empty hand, the implication being it is a completely unarmed art. However, I have seen quite a few references that the original kanji for karate meant Chinese hand.Then later it was slightly altered to "empty hand" to appease the Japanese - but the pronunciation stayed the same.
I practice Shorin Ryu and we sometimes throw around the word kobudo (i think mostly for understanding's sake), but its all in the same syllabus.
|
|
Chef Samurai
Global Moderator
Canadian Catch Wrestling
Posts: 843
|
Post by Chef Samurai on Nov 11, 2012 1:49:05 GMT -5
I bet they are.
I noticed a lot of martial arts with weapons have a unarmed component & when conventional weapons were banned in the ryukyu kingdom by the japanese they didn't nesciscarily start from scratch since theya always had unnarmed techniques to use but now they just had to expand on them more because that's their main means of defence.
It's a similar parallel to boxing, wrestling coming from fencing since old english wrestling manuals are full of punches to the face, open hand chops to the neck, kicks to the sack and throws that were used by the fencers in boxing & wrestling matches to win against people making their own stuff up.
|
|
|
Post by shurite99 on Nov 11, 2012 2:04:05 GMT -5
Interesting. I hadn't thought of the possibility that the weapons aspect may have been the more dominant then the unarmed techniques pre-Japanese occupation.
Between the Japanese rocking up and the island being leveled during ww2, probably not much evidence to say either way though..
|
|
odee
Global Moderator
Kyokushin 10 years - Brazilian Jujitsu 3 years - Muay Thai 2 years.
Posts: 1,286
|
Post by odee on Nov 11, 2012 5:56:16 GMT -5
I don't think they bothered much concerning labelling the weapon practice as something different, usually it's the sticklers caught up on the whole empty hand thing that categorise the two seperately.
I'm willing to bet that in Okinawa during Japanese invasion it was called 'Training to fight those invading bastards'.
|
|
Chef Samurai
Global Moderator
Canadian Catch Wrestling
Posts: 843
|
Post by Chef Samurai on Nov 11, 2012 15:23:20 GMT -5
I also heard ALL styles of karate pre-ww2 & jka had extensive kobudo syllabuses in them and it wasn't until around the same time the 2 were touted as distinct styles.
Also from my research every style had a weapon association at one point or another but certain things happen to change that like people only learning the unarmed and passing that on without the weapon aspects etc.
|
|
odee
Global Moderator
Kyokushin 10 years - Brazilian Jujitsu 3 years - Muay Thai 2 years.
Posts: 1,286
|
Post by odee on Nov 12, 2012 17:38:45 GMT -5
Times change. One thing that changed is the amount of time people put into martial training. Most people don't train six hours a day anymore, they train one, two or three hours a day and usually not on weekends, so un-needed things get cut to focus on what is still important or relevant. Even if you're certified to carry nunchucku for example a snarky cop can still find reason to confiscate them and fine your ass. Fighting with nunchucku will get you thrown in jail. So why bother teaching them? Same goes for sai, tonfa and pretty much any knife. The other thing that changed is the ranged weapon. A person can sometimes see an arrow coming and dodge it, hell, even catch it. Bullets are smaller and faster and carry the kinetic energy to cut through your hand if you try to catch it, so why bother? Kabudo weaponry...cut. Ranged weapon defense...cut. The same thing has happened to sparring in a lot of schools and kata in others. People make decisions, sometimes they're valid...sometimes...not so much.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2012 4:25:18 GMT -5
Tough one. I can see how it would have fit into Okinawan Te before the Japanese invasion/occupation. I have read that Te was the empty hand of the Okinawans (a mix of striking and grappling). And that Kobudo developed by the training and use in farming tools etc after the Japanese banned all weapons. My thought (based on what I've read but not at all conclusive) is that Karate and Kobudo are different martial arts. Karate or the original Te most likely had weapons. After the weapons were banned it became empty hand in focus. And it became close doored within families. Kobudo developed from people training in farming tools etc for self defence. I think they are different. And example is the founder of Chito-ryu Karate, Tsuyoshi Chitose taught separate katas in each of Karate and Kobudo. He was recognised by the Zen Okinawa Karate Kobudo Rengo Kai (All Okinawa Union of Karate-do and Kobu-do). After reading this wikipedia page that shows Kobudo in Karate styles. I am totally confused.......but I still think (weakly atm) that they are separate but taught alongside each other.......so confused LOL #Comparison_of_Okinawan_kobud.C5.8D_styles" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okinawan_kobud%C5%#Comparison_of_Okinawan_kobud.C5.8D_styles
|
|
|
Post by shurite99 on Nov 13, 2012 23:05:46 GMT -5
@fraiser IMO probably the farming tools were just added on to the existing "kobudo" curriculum - kama and eku come to mind (last being a fishermans tools instead). Most of the kobudo weapons today seems to have come from China - sai, nunchuku, bo, shield/spear. All just semantics at this stage i guess.. BTW found this interesting article regarding why kobudo isn't normally taught at karate schools these days. Short story is it makes less money www.karatebyjesse.com/the-secret-to-why-kobudo-never-became-popular/
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2012 23:13:31 GMT -5
@fraiser IMO probably the farming tools were just added on to the existing "kobudo" curriculum - kama and eku come to mind (last being a fishermans tools instead). Most of the kobudo weapons today seems to have come from China - sai, nunchuku, bo, shield/spear. All just semantics at this stage i guess.. BTW found this interesting article regarding why kobudo isn't normally taught at karate schools these days. Short story is it makes less money www.karatebyjesse.com/the-secret-to-why-kobudo-never-became-popular/ Makes sense. It probably was added to existing Kobudo and those weapons stuck as they could be claimed to be farming or fishing tools.
|
|
odee
Global Moderator
Kyokushin 10 years - Brazilian Jujitsu 3 years - Muay Thai 2 years.
Posts: 1,286
|
Post by odee on Nov 14, 2012 17:53:16 GMT -5
I'd like to know what Okinawan weaponry was like before the weapon banning that the Japanese imposed on them.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2012 17:58:20 GMT -5
I'd like to know what Okinawan weaponry was like before the weapon banning that the Japanese imposed on them. I'm not super sure but I'm assuming it was the average that most countries had then like swords, spears, bow and arrows etc.
|
|
odee
Global Moderator
Kyokushin 10 years - Brazilian Jujitsu 3 years - Muay Thai 2 years.
Posts: 1,286
|
Post by odee on Nov 14, 2012 18:56:58 GMT -5
I don't doubt that Frasier. I meant more along the lines of what country they would have been closest to in technology and style. After all Okinawa was supposedly a trading hub before Japan invaded so they had exposure to Thai, Korean, Chinese and Japanese equipment, they would have had some kind of favoured weapons system. The big question would be - What was their weapon system before the weapons ban? Was it Kobudo? Does Kobudo actually refer to the weapons themselves or is it just another way of saying 'weapons training'? Was Kobudo in use before the invention of Chinese Hands?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2012 22:52:37 GMT -5
I don't doubt that Frasier. I meant more along the lines of what country they would have been closest to in technology and style. After all Okinawa was supposedly a trading hub before Japan invaded so they had exposure to Thai, Korean, Chinese and Japanese equipment, they would have had some kind of favoured weapons system. The big question would be - What was their weapon system before the weapons ban? Was it Kobudo? Does Kobudo actually refer to the weapons themselves or is it just another way of saying 'weapons training'? Was Kobudo in use before the invention of Chinese Hands? Sorry Odee, I totally misunderstood your post. I am thinking that they would have had a similar training in weapons to the Chinese since Okinawa was a tribute state of the Ming dynasty and many Okinawans have Chinese heritage. You raise a very good point. What exactly was Kobudo before the ban..... and how did it change/alter or was it seperate from Chinese hand.....they are the big questions.......fascinating
|
|
odee
Global Moderator
Kyokushin 10 years - Brazilian Jujitsu 3 years - Muay Thai 2 years.
Posts: 1,286
|
Post by odee on Nov 15, 2012 16:42:46 GMT -5
Googled Kobudo and found out that Kobudo, the term not the style is Japanese and means 'Old martial way' it doesn't even say it's a weapon style.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2012 22:47:24 GMT -5
Definition of the term Okinawan kobudō and the term Kobudō Okinawan kobudō is a Japanese term that can be translated as "old martial way of Okinawa". It is a generic term coined in the twentieth century. Okinawan kobudō refers to the weapon systems of Okinawan martial arts, included the rokushakubo (six foot staff, known as the "bō"), sai (dagger-shaped truncheon), tonfa (handled club), kama (sickle), and nunchaku (chained sticks), but also the tekko (knuckledusters), tinbe-rochin (shield and spear), and surujin (weighted chain). Less common Okinawan weapons include the tambo (short stick), the hanbō (middle length staff) and the eku (boat oar of traditional Okinawan design). Okinawan kobudō may not be confused with the term Kobudō, which is described in the article Koryū, because the term Kobudō refers not to a weapon system but refers to a concept of moral from the feudal Japan.[1][2] #Definition_of_the_term_Okinawan_kobud.C5.8D_and_the_term_Kobud.C5." rel="nofollow" target="_blank">en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okinawan_kobud%C5%#Definition_of_the_term_Okinawan_kobud.C5.8D_and_the_term_Kobud.C5.
|
|