Chef Samurai
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Post by Chef Samurai on Nov 24, 2012 23:18:31 GMT -5
don't ever trust wikipedia the bare knuckle boxing section is a joke as are most other articles.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2012 0:59:20 GMT -5
True, I was just putting it in to see what ppl thought of its points
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Chef Samurai
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Post by Chef Samurai on Nov 25, 2012 2:31:23 GMT -5
That makes sense sorry to derail you there and I think it points out it's meaning as old war way but it doesn't give much detail.
"Okinawan kobudō arts are thought by some to be the forerunner of the bare hand martial art of karate, and several styles of that art include some degree of Okinawan kobudō training as part of their curriculum. Similarly, it is not uncommon to see an occasional kick or other empty-hand technique in a Okinawan kobudō kata. The techniques of the two arts are closely related in some styles, evidenced by the empty-hand and weapon variants of certain kata: for example, Kankū-dai and Kankū-sai, and Gojūshiho and Gojūshiho-no-sai, although these are examples of Okinawan kobudō kata which have been developed from karate kata and are not traditional Okinawan kobudō forms. Other more authentic Okinawan kobudō kata demonstrate elements of empty hand techniques as is shown in older forms such as Soeishi No Dai, a bo form which is one of the few authentic Okinawan kobudō kata to make use of a kick as the penultimate technique. Some Okinawan kobudō kata have undergone less "modern development" than karate and still retain much more of the original elements, reflections of which can be seen in even more modern karate kata. The connection between empty hand and weapon methods can be directly related in systems such as that formulated in order to preserve both arts such as Inoue/Taira's Ryūkyū Kobujutsu Hozon Shinko Kai and Motokatsu Inoue's Yuishinkai Karate Jutsu. M. Inoue draws direct comparisons between the use of certain weapons and various elements of empty hand technique such as sai mirroring haito/shuto waza, tonfa reflecting that of urkaken and hijiate, and kama of kurite and kakete, as examples. The footwork in both methods is interchangeable."
This part makes sense!!!!
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odee
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Post by odee on Nov 25, 2012 5:07:23 GMT -5
I'd say it's fair to say that Karate has been mixed through Kobudo and vise-versa. Originally the same might not be the right term but at points in their history Karate and Kobudo have been one and the same.
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Chef Samurai
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Post by Chef Samurai on Nov 25, 2012 12:48:28 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure it started as a mixed style of unarmed & armed but when the weapons became illegal they emphasized the unarmed and expanded upon it.
Also Japanese karate & Okinawan karate are 2 different things with the same name but Japanese Karate had many Japanese concepts from Judo, Jujutsu & that Ryukyu Karate never had thus changing it.
If you look at Choki Motobu his style (not his family style but his own) looks more like wing chun & aikido than kickboxing like modern karate does.
The Udundi Palace Hand styles also look a lot like Aikido & Jujutsu and modern Japanese Karate doesn't resemble it one bit.
Almost all styles have origins with weapons & unarmed mixed & I can't even really think of any that don't but it's people's lineages specializing in one aspect and them passing it on like that that drastically changes a style from what I've found so far.
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Post by kokoro on Nov 27, 2012 20:58:38 GMT -5
i just quickly skimmed this and may have missed a bunch of stuff typed. kobudo can refer to both empty hand and weapon styles, in okinawa. there consists of over 40 various weapons. and probably about 50 some odd styles. the history of kobudo goes back further then karate. to somewhere in the late 1300's if i remember correctly. the first recorded was that of bojutsu and sojutsu, in some battle on okinawa. if you look at all the masters of both karate and kobudo Non of them were farmers, they were all of the upper class or peichen class equivalent to the samurai class in japan. as for the weapons being farm tools. well weapons were band twice on okinawa and metal was expensive. if you owned a pair of sai you belong to the upper class, peasants couldnt afford this weapon and it was on of the few that was an actual weapon modeled after a chinese short sword. the peasants spent all day farming, with little time for anything else let alone creating a style another theory is that several of the farmers were solders or retired, and when defending themselves would use what was on the farm. i believe to some extent that might be true, but i think this is more true in china then it was in okinawa as well. but thats another long theory as well I also heard ALL styles of karate pre-ww2 & jka had extensive kobudo syllabuses in them and it wasn't until around the same time the 2 were touted as distinct styles. Also from my research every style had a weapon association at one point or another but certain things happen to change that like people only learning the unarmed and passing that on without the weapon aspects etc. the jka strikes again. man i have issue with them and this is another one. sensei nakiyama the head of the jka describe to the japanese military that karate was just tai chi on steroids. this was in order to keep karate going after the war. something to do with any thing that was war like had to be stopped after the war. even shotokan had several kobudo kata including sai and bo. sensei funakoshi family was a well known bojutsu family back in okinawa
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odee
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Post by odee on Apr 26, 2013 18:52:18 GMT -5
You know it's funny. If Sensei Nakiyama was comparing it to the morning excercise Tai Chi that you can see in parks around China every morning he'd probably call his words prophetic considering all the McDojos about today.
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2013 5:03:56 GMT -5
Which styles of Karate also teach Kobudo and weapons?
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odee
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Post by odee on May 4, 2013 21:16:57 GMT -5
Almost all Karate styles do a bit of work with the bo but these days Kobudo weaponry practice is kind of a rarity.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2013 2:21:26 GMT -5
I was told that Goju-ryu has no weapons at all but my mate who does Shotokan has done nunchakus and the bo. Chito-ryu has an extensive Kobudo kata and training curriculum.
There is a difference I think between the Karate styles.
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odee
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Post by odee on May 5, 2013 7:48:27 GMT -5
I don't. I think teachers that know it and believe it relevant teach it, teachers that don't know it or don't consider it relevant don't teach it. Styles don't determine the weapon systems available knowledge does. If the teachers don't know it you aren't going to learn it from them.
The only exception to this rule is in McDojos where weapons are taught because they draw students - the weapons being well taught is a matter for debate.
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Post by kokoro on May 6, 2013 18:12:18 GMT -5
like karate there are different styles of kobudo, from my understanding there is about 50 or so, i have traced the names of about 25 of them down. the weapons you learn depend upon the style of kobudo. and in most cases the kobudo style matches or is similar to the karate style. there are the 5 common core weapons taught in the majority of the styles and at least another 45 minor weapons. many of the weapons are rare and hard to find an instructor for. kobudo history is older then karate and is along the same lineages of karate
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