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Post by friendlyvirus on Jun 21, 2012 23:31:04 GMT -5
so here is the stuff, there is this guy with no formal training and some dude that went to a Mcdojo, lets say for example choi kwang do, they fight, who do you think has the more chances to win?. for this example both guys are exactly the same, except for the training, the dude with no training is an average dude, he knows how to punch, he ain't a killing machine but he isn't that helpless.
the thing about this is that if you think that going into a Mcdojo is better than nothing, or all the useless stuff they teach you is a burden that makes you a worst fighter.
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Chef Samurai
Global Moderator
Canadian Catch Wrestling
Posts: 843
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Post by Chef Samurai on Jun 21, 2012 23:40:00 GMT -5
I don't know about this one lol
since a mcdojoer is just a generic dude with crappy training it's hard to say...
maybe natural instincts are better than trained bullshit
you gave me something to think about thank you!
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Post by jwbulldogs on Jun 22, 2012 3:12:51 GMT -5
As in any other case the better fighter wins. Not everything in a mcdojo is bad. They can produce a person with a good kick, punch, etc. Every now and then even a blind squirrel finds a nut.
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Post by cheetah on Jun 22, 2012 12:05:46 GMT -5
Crappy training is better than no training.
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Post by judomofo on Jun 22, 2012 13:55:26 GMT -5
Guess I will be the odd duck, crappy training is worst than no training. Giving someone an overinflated sense of abilities, or teaching techniques that would essentially be the worst of things to do in a real fight. (
Seriously overdeveloped bad habits in stances and bad habits in general are way worst than someone merely reacting on instinct.
Take for example someone used to a 1 or 2 step drill in which in they do a hard outside block with both hands and wrap up an opponents hand, completely not realizing they have left no hands to defend their head, and a guy who is wailing on them with his free hand.
Maybe it is because I have seen McDojo blackbets get their butts kicked in high school fights, and I am biased. But years of training bad habits to me is worst than just instinctual reaction...
I would say other guy.
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Post by Glutton4Punishment on Jun 22, 2012 14:09:32 GMT -5
I've been trying not to answer but since nobody's saying it I will.
It depends on the individuals. Too many variables here. Maybe the untrained fighter has a lot of natural talent. Maybe he doesn't. Same goes for the one that trained in a McDojo. In the end, even if they are both of the exact same level of natural talent we have a tossup. A fight is chaos, and any number of things can happen. It isn't always the better fighter that wins, either.
It also somewhat depends on the art trained. Maybe the training built bad habits. I've said before that you can't just practice Ballet, call it Ballet-Do and add a couple kicks and punches and expect it to be effective. But if the style and at least some of it's training methods are actually well thought out, then maybe even a McDojo can build a half-ass decent fighter.
There's really no way to tell.
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MA Ray
White Belt
WTF Taekwondo, Muay Thai, and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Practitioner
Posts: 43
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Post by MA Ray on Jun 22, 2012 14:38:21 GMT -5
I chose "other guy". Let me explain why. Most of you I bet have asked your instructor before, "Why do we turn this way and just do this instead" or something along the lines of that. Unless your place was a McDojo, I guarantee your instructor explained to you the reason why. There is a reason for every single turn, spin, angle, etc. for every technique in martial arts that we practice. Let's for example say I went to a McDojo and I practiced BJJ. We'll use the armbar for this example. If a good practitioner fought an untrained person, he would submit him (or break his arm in a real self defense situation). However, I supposedly went to a McDojo and when I pull down his arm and raise my hips off of the ground to complete the armbar, instead of his fist facing vertical like a hammerfist, it's facing sideways like a punch, which isn't how it's supposed to work. I practice that for years not knowing that I'm at a McDojo and when I use that for self defense, my opponent feels no pain and instead starts punching my face due to the loss in time and beats me to a pulp. You see, in the end, every minor detail like this counts. Like I mentioned above, there is a reason why martial arts don't practice tiny errors like this because then the entire move isn't that move anymore and won't work anywhere close as effectively as the original technique. Unlike in the McDojo, where minor details like this are left out which causes the power of the move to be lost and the technique's value gone. Not only is the technique ruined, but also that move has been etched into the McDojo practitioner's mind that it will take him an even longer time to adjust to the correct move than an untrained person whose mind is fresh and ready to learn. Just my thoughts and opinions.
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odee
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Kyokushin 10 years - Brazilian Jujitsu 3 years - Muay Thai 2 years.
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Post by odee on Jun 22, 2012 19:59:52 GMT -5
I'm throwing my money down on the generic guy over a student of a McDojo but I wouldn't always bet against the teacher.
In my opinion the thing that makes a McDojo bad is the lack of hard sparring. People who put up with that lack of hitting tend to believe that they can learn to fight without getting hurt otherwise they would have kept searching until they found a proper full contact school. It's very rare to find the guys who enjoy hitting others in McDojos as they tend to gravitate towards the schools and gyms that have a reputation for harshness. So McDojo students tend to be wimps and not overly bright.
Teachers on the other hand haven't always been trained in the same way as students. The guys who made the ATA were proper Taekwando students who let their standards slide in persuit of money. Yes their schools are shit but I'd be a bit less convinced about them being as bad as their students. The guy who made Aikido developed his pacifist methods AFTER learning properly hard-core Japanese Jujitsu. He already possessed the experience of a proper fighter who was used to violence and pain.
Generic dude willing to fight a martial artist obviously has a bit of confidence in his ability to win over a reasonably well trained fighter. Average McDojo student wouldn't have a snowflakes chance in hell.
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Post by aceofclubs on Jun 22, 2012 23:41:05 GMT -5
I will only speak on the McDojos of my style. I have seen Youtube videos of the people training in the McDojos. They look like they cannot survive a street fight.
So to answer your question, a person with no training will defeat someone trained in a McDojo from my style. The reason is that they believe that they have learned a real martial art, when in fact, they haven't done any of the hard training that will make them competent.
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Post by capoeirista on Jun 29, 2012 3:11:22 GMT -5
I've noticed that many McDojoers are very confident in their ability prior to a fight. Usually way too confident. The fact is, overconfidence combined with little ability is the perfect combination for a loss. It doesn't matter if the generic dude only know how to throw a punch, he'll still be able to do more damage than somebody who believes their black belt has made them the next Bruce Lee.
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rikashiku
Yellow Belt
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Post by rikashiku on Jun 29, 2012 7:50:13 GMT -5
A Mcdojo person is trained to think that how he was trained and what he learned will work. The other guy won't care.
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