KyKarateka
Global Moderator
Kyokushin & Judo
Posts: 233
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Post by KyKarateka on Jun 9, 2013 0:32:59 GMT -5
Muay Thai isn't just a sport, it still contains illegal attacks like groin kicks and eye strikes but doesn't allow them in competition. its my understanding that muay thai fighters refuse to learn those techniques that are not allowed in competition, they see no point since its against the rules. Note this may be more related to practitioners in thailand then other countries. Simply because Muay Thai practitioners refuse to learn specific techniques from the art it doesn't change the martial art to a sport. Sure many Muay Thai fighters train for sport but it doesn't really make the art a sport. In the long term however, if Muay Thai fighters refuse to learn the other side of the art then we may see Muay Thai turn into an actual sport. But as of right now, it remains a martial art to me.
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Post by kokoro on Jun 9, 2013 13:36:45 GMT -5
if you train karate, with rules and remove techniques from your training then that makes it a sport. so you are training martial sport. if you train karate with no rules then that makes it a martial art.
muay thai was specifically trained under rules and always was so its a martial sport. i have never heard of it in thai land being practiced without rules. because foreigners brought it to there country and added more techniques that does not change the original style. and perhaps i didnt explain the full think in my last statement muay boran was the style with out rules, so its a martial art
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Post by Glutton4Punishment on Jun 9, 2013 15:57:28 GMT -5
Kokoro, things aren't black and white. If your school doesn't train with rules during drilling and sparring and during competition, then your'e practicing garbage, not a martial art. If you train with ONLY rules, then you may call it a sport, and if you train with rules but ALSO study up on techniques that are a part of your style that aren't legal in competition then you are still training in a Martial Art. The rules aren't there to "sportify" things, they're there to protect practitioners so that they can safely compete.
Do you know how to Te Tut? That's the Muay Thai cut kick. When throwing this kick, the original intent is to use the counterbalancing arm that swings out with the kick to scrape the eyes of the opponent. This allows you to attack two targets in one movement, the target of your kick and the eyes, which also forces the opponent to defend twice as well or end up having a bad day. This still works to this day without gloves, and with gloves it stops the fingers from going into the eyes. For this reason, many no longer slide the glove across the face but instead simply keep the arm out to guard or swing it back further for more kicking power. This is traditional Muay Thai, and any Muay Thai fighter in Thailand could apply this application and knows about it. They are not IGNORANT of their own style's history and applications. The Thai are proud of their art as both a sport and a tradition, hence their Wai Kru and passing down of techniques that aren't legal in competition. How about Te Trong? You won't see this kick in the ring. It's targeted to either the groin or the chin and is basically a rising front kick. Any Muay Thai fighter in Thailand could show you this kick as well.
Do more brushing up on Muay Thai before you peg it as whatever the hell you ASSUME it is based on what little you've seen. I've never called Karate a sport, and yet there's TONS of competitive Karate out there with even more rules than what a Muay Thai fighter would be forced to follow. I don't judge Shotokan based on how it's practitioners compete, so why would you judge Muay Thai based on how it's fighters compete in the ring rather than what they're actually learning?
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odee
Global Moderator
Kyokushin 10 years - Brazilian Jujitsu 3 years - Muay Thai 2 years.
Posts: 1,286
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Post by odee on Jun 9, 2013 18:37:10 GMT -5
People often peg Kyokushin as an art that doesn't practice punching to the face. I know that to be complete tripe, one of the first moves you learn on your first day is the jab to the face. It's the same with most martial arts that have a heavy sporting influence, people bag them based on what they see in the media. You'd have a hard time finding a Boxer who doesn't understand why punching the throat is against the rules and just as hard a time finding a Boxer who can't make that shot.
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Post by kokoro on Jun 13, 2013 6:33:17 GMT -5
gp4 why is being a sport so bad? its more how the sport is set up is it full contact or a game of tag?
its not just rules, its how much time you train under rules. in my option if you spend more then 2/3 of your time training under rules then its a sport.
sport completion is necessary for development, but not a 100% of the time. muay thai does full contact competition, but most karate tournaments are not its a game of tag. and many schools spend all there time playing this game of tag making there fighting skill suck. fighting should not be a game of tag, this crap ruins schools. point sparing was not original a tag game. a point was suppose to be a focused strike that would have crippled or killed your opponent. many tournaments have lost sight of this. and now i see more and more of them going to oylmpic rules (3 points to a love tap kick to the head, 1 point for a tap punch) its all bs. it needs to be contact not this point crap. points have there place but not to the extent of ruining your skills in fighting
my students use to train about 2 weeks for tournaments and that was more going over the rules and the procedures, they would all wipe out the other completions, they were not trained for tag sparing they were trained to hit and let the other person know it. if they ever got into a street fight i knew they would have a very good chance in being the one to survive and a few of them did, the neighborhood was not the best area.
they way you train is the way you fight on the street, muay thai even under rules is good contact. but not all karate schools are. and they should be.
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odee
Global Moderator
Kyokushin 10 years - Brazilian Jujitsu 3 years - Muay Thai 2 years.
Posts: 1,286
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Post by odee on Jun 13, 2013 7:26:43 GMT -5
There's nothing offensive about being labelled as a sport Kokoro, what Glutton and I find offensive is that it's being labelled as 'just a sport' rather than as a sport AND a martial art.
I think that most sparring sessions need to be contact and continuous. Not all point sparring competitions are tippy-tap games of tag, some of them are actually very painful affairs but even practicing point sparring full-contact is limited if it's the only sparring practice you're getting. I love point sparring competitions, I suck at them, but I love what they offer to and encourage in fighters, precision, speed and explosive power, exactly what a martial artist needs and wants. The problem is that if point sparring is the only exposure to sparring that a student recieves that student is going to miss out on equally important but less impressive skills. I call it 'ring-craft'. It's easy to tell fighters who haven't practiced much continous sparring because those who have will bully them, I don't mean picking on them I mean pushing them around. Point sparring students usually have fast feet to keep distance but ring-craft also means forcing distance, shutting down moves by crowding and scrapping between openings or scrapping to force an opening. It's something that's painfully obvious when it's missing.
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Post by Glutton4Punishment on Jun 13, 2013 18:48:35 GMT -5
There's nothing offensive about being labelled as a sport Kokoro, what Glutton and I find offensive is that it's being labelled as 'just a sport' rather than as a sport AND a martial art. Exactly this. This is the point I'm making when I say that things aren't black or white. There are shades of gray everywhere. People consistently label Muay Thai as JUST a sport, no longer a martial art, when it simply isn't true. The martial art side still exists even in many gyms that primarily focus on the sport side of the art. The impression that Muay Thai is just a sport, as well as the impression that Muay Thai is any more or less effective or deadly than arts like Muay Lao, is simply coming from a place of ignorance - And I don't mean this as in stupidity, but ignorance as in a lack of understanding of Muay Thai OR Muay Lao. The two arts are 99.9% Identical. The only differences are in applications. There is not a single technique in Muay Lao that does not exist in Muay Thai, the two arts are of the same origins and contain the same techniques. They're sister styles. Without further knowledge of both, though, people come to conclusions like that of the OP.
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KyKarateka
Global Moderator
Kyokushin & Judo
Posts: 233
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Post by KyKarateka on Jun 13, 2013 20:09:33 GMT -5
Also, the amount of fatal techniques within an art doesn't determine whether it's a martial art or not. It doesn't matter if two arts contain the same techniques but if one trains for competition and the other for life defense that's where the line divides. What you train for is what determines if you're a martial artist or not.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2013 13:17:51 GMT -5
G4P: "Without further knowledge of both, though, people come to conclusions like that of the OP." If you are referring to me as being ignorant about Muay Thai/Muay Lao etc then you're wrong. You did not even understand my point. I'm not trying to say they are more effective and more brutal than Muay Thai, i'm saying that there are more styles out there exactly like Muay Thai that nobody has even heard of that are basically the same thing yet people think Muay Thai is the most brutal art of all. My English sucks as i'm using a translator right now I know but I made sure this post was to be understood. This post has nothing to do with misunderstood martial arts. This post was to show how people overate Muay Thai when there are other styles that are the same exact thing that usually have more tough training. (I know the amount of toughness of training depends on the teacher and how much the student is willing to put in the effort but i'm just generalizing)
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Post by Glutton4Punishment on Jun 17, 2013 16:26:55 GMT -5
Generalizing based on what? How many schools for Muay Thai and Muay Lao have you been to? The toughness of the training has nothing to do with the art. It has everything to do with the person training and their teacher. The art itself only determines what tools you have in your arsenal.
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odee
Global Moderator
Kyokushin 10 years - Brazilian Jujitsu 3 years - Muay Thai 2 years.
Posts: 1,286
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Post by odee on Jun 17, 2013 17:36:36 GMT -5
I think that's what he's trying to say Glutton. The original question was why is Muay Thai seen as so much more deadly than other similar asian martial arts when they're the same.
The answer is media.
Glutton is going to hate me for this but Muay Thai has a lot in common with Wing Chun in the exposure stakes, Muay Thai has recieved popularity boosts from K-1, the UFC, Pride, Pancrase and Tony Jaa. Kickboxing used to be associated with Karate, now more and more people think of it as Muay Thai and associate Karate with the Karate Kid. Muay Thai has recieved a media boost that the other similar styles haven't. People on the whole believe what they hear and see, they take things at face value then sometimes parrot that information and claim it as fact. When the sound barrier was first broken people believed that the English had done it with a Spitfire because cinema had convinced them of it. People believe that MMA is a single style without even bothering to find out that it's an acronym for a phrase that makes it impossible to be a single style. MMA fans trash-talk all things Karate then say nice things about Kyokushin because they don't care enough to find out that Kyokushin is Karate or because they're like our buddy Keyboard Warrior and can't be bothered explaining. Muay Boran, Muay Lao, Tomoi, Lethwei, Bokator, and Pradal Serey simply do not exist as far as most people are concerned.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2013 22:12:30 GMT -5
Exactly Odee. G4P is not understand what I am saying. By the way, I've visited 3. For all due respect, this argument keeps going in circles. I said what I said in the OP and you misunderstood and created an argument in which I agree with you 100% on, yet you keep it going for what? I already agree with what you have to say. The question was mainly "why is Muay Thai said as most brutal yet there are arts exactly like it?' and you started saying stuff not related to the topic. I thought it was exposure and then another poster said it was exactly exposure. My question was answered already yet you keep going on.
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Post by Glutton4Punishment on Jun 19, 2013 20:29:09 GMT -5
The question was mainly " why is Muay Thai said as most brutal yet there are arts exactly like it?' and you started saying stuff not related to the topic. Bull crap. Those are your words. Your original point was not to say there are other styles that are just like it, but to note that the other styles are more brutal and dangerous as well. Now that you've received opposition on your original point you're trying to change your stance. I've made no arguments that came out of nowhere. My arguments have been in retort to this, and in retort to some of what Kokoro had to say as well. Don't try to spin the discussion. If you realize that your original post was in err or if you worded it badly, then say so, but don't try to tell me that I've made an argument against something that you never said.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2013 16:48:31 GMT -5
You're getting worked up for nothing. The training IS more brutal depending on where you go. No need to get mad. I think this thread is done and I think i'm done on this website. Keyboard Warrior wants people to join this website and talk about martial arts in a nice friendly environment yet members like Glutton have to get mad over nothing. You just lost another member.
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Post by Glutton4Punishment on Jun 20, 2013 19:16:46 GMT -5
I have already shown through the red selected dialogue that this thread was indeed started off with inflammatory language. I'm not angry, I'm simply defending a style that I care about and arguing my points. I also won't be turned into the person who's arguing against nothing, because that simply isn't the case.
I know you deleted your account, that's fine. Feel free to come back and remember that YOU chose to post this thread in The Warzone. If you can't have a thick skin and debate things here without throwing a fit and leaving, then if you come back in the future simply do not post in this section. I'll make no apology for my posts here, and nobody else needs to either. That's the entire point of this section.
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