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Post by Glutton4Punishment on Jun 24, 2013 0:02:06 GMT -5
In traditional Japanese and Chinese styles come partially from their history as being outlawed? I know that leading up to the Boxer Rebellion the Chinese made it illegal to study martial arts. The Japanese also made it illegal for some time to practice Karate. Practitioners from both styles years before were forced to study and pass down their skills in secrecy. That could make excessive Kumite and sparring a bad idea because it could set off some red flags at the time when practitioners walked about with bruises, cuts, etc. Do you think a part of why Kata and forms are so heavily stressed could be because they were necessity back then? Practitioners could go over forms over and over again in private without getting beaten up so they'd develop muscle memory without getting injured and possibly exposed as illegal martial artists?
This came out of my daydreaming brain. I don't have any way of knowing what these arts were like before they were made illegal and then legal again, but I wonder if it could have had some effect on HOW the arts were trained? I would think that before they were made illegal training would have contained far more sparring/Kumite and less forms/Kata, but of course I could be wrong. Anybody have any insight into this history? Or even just thoughts on my little brainstorm?
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odee
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Post by odee on Jun 24, 2013 3:08:32 GMT -5
Yes and yes. But there was sparring. I'm not sure if it's so true in Okinawa but reports were made of an unusual amount of seemingly pointless civil brawls in China. People claim that those were actually mock battles for training application, they also made the fighters look pretty unorganized.
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KyKarateka
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Post by KyKarateka on Jun 24, 2013 16:05:49 GMT -5
I haven't really thought of it that way but yeah that seems to make sense actually. However if they practiced forms and such for such a long time while the said martial arts were outlawed, wouldn't the sparring techniques just die off all together?
Reliance on forms and forms only won't be all that beneficial for you. Don't get me wrong, they're good to develop balance, focus but without learning the applications of the techniques used in forms and practicing them regularly what good are the forms themselves?
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Post by Glutton4Punishment on Jun 25, 2013 0:27:14 GMT -5
Didn't most traditional Kumite consist of stopping before landing a strike? I wonder if that also somehow had to do with the same circumstances. It could also explain how sparring techniques didn't die out completely like you say. Of course this is a pure speculation thread.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2013 4:38:21 GMT -5
Interesting thread.......then you have Tai Chi Chuan that slowed down their forms from the original fast forms.
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odee
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Post by odee on Jun 25, 2013 17:58:42 GMT -5
This would probably be a question for Chef.
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Post by Glutton4Punishment on Jun 25, 2013 18:41:08 GMT -5
Probably, but he hasn't been around in forever.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2013 4:23:43 GMT -5
Yeah, haven't seen him post in ages
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Post by kokoro on Jun 27, 2013 15:15:16 GMT -5
i think its more simpler then you all are making it out to be.
think of it this way, how long would it take you by hand to create a manual for your style. hand drawing every picture and hand writing every word. wouldnt it be simpler to make a 2 minute kata that contains the entire style.
plus martial arts was not illegal in china yet they do forms, martial arts was not illegal in thai land and mauy boran has forms, as well as india, vietnam and several other asian cultures.
yes you can hide your techniques in kata from the public. that is true, but also consider most if not all okinawan masters were of peichin class equivalent to the samurai of japan, and many were known to take martial arts even during the band such as mastumura, he was feared by the samurai in the 17 to 1800's during this band. just why would the samurai fear an unarmed person when they were highly skilled with a sword. they were not stupid they knew people were practicing tode, they may not have see them practice it, but they did know some people were.
and by the way most traditional kumite involved a lot of grappling as well as strikes, okinawan-te was a wrestling art not a striking art. even in kobudo (weapons) there is a lot of grappling nunchaku is a grappling weapon more then a striking weapon
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Post by kokoro on Jun 27, 2013 15:31:12 GMT -5
bytw i have been piecing this together over the years, this is a theory only not fact. but to me and others it does make sense
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odee
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Post by odee on Jun 27, 2013 19:15:00 GMT -5
Quicker training methods are always in high demand.
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KyKarateka
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Post by KyKarateka on Jun 29, 2013 0:00:22 GMT -5
You don't need to train quickly, you just need to train hard Odee haha
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odee
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Post by odee on Jun 29, 2013 18:30:14 GMT -5
Funny. Seriously though I agree with the thought that kata can reduce the time spent on basics to open you up to more dynamic things like fitness and sparring.
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Post by kokoro on Jun 29, 2013 19:13:49 GMT -5
the problem is most people that train kata outside of asia dont train it right. kata was meant to be used in a fight. and few people train to use it in a fight, they train to use it for show. and are in a rush to learn the next. rather then understanding the one they know already. its the same for techniques. most people dont use the technique for what it is for, for example they only use down guard for blocking a low technique, when that is far from the purpose of it. why on earth would anyone want to tie up two of there weapons to block one weapon leaving yourself open to the next attack. if you think that is the application for down guard is for you are wrong. down guard has countless applications. most of which are grappling. you can use downguard against a large number of attacks, as well a for a variety of offensive techniques.
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Post by Glutton4Punishment on Jun 29, 2013 21:59:44 GMT -5
Kokoro, martial arts were indeed illegal in China under the Qing Dynasty for some time leading up to The Boxer Rebellion. During this time, many styles were practiced "underground", both figuratively and literally.
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