|
Post by lordunagi on Aug 19, 2013 4:52:22 GMT -5
Politics. And Culture. This pretty much goes hand-in-hand with tradition. "It's the right way because we've always done it this way." "I'm right because I'm older." "My teacher's teacher's teacher learned the original way."
Because most traditional martial arts are from Asian countries, Asian culture is deeply infused. Eastern philosophy respects the old rather than the new. Concepts are anything but straightforward. Some would rather die to "save face." Hierarchy must be kept. Innovation is often frowned upon because the older ones can't get use to it and if they can't use it, neither can the younger ones. Seniority is always right and should never be questioned. Tradition must be preserved. Form over function. Western cultures on the other hand, have more respect on things new. If it doesn't work, toss it aside and move on something that does. This is how the west managed to invade the east due to the technological advantages. Respecting the old stayed behind. Respecting the new, moved forward. Anything goes. Questions everything. Function over form.
But the world today is globalizing. The new generation of the East doesn't see a point in respecting seniority without question since the Western generation doesn't have to. It just doesn't suit their needs in terms of advantage. Since there's a freedom of choice, who are they to say you can only choose one?
This is why MMA is frowned upon today by traditionalists. "If you're not with us, you're against us." That kind of mentality just proves to be narrow-minded. The difference? MMA can accept something if it works. TMA isn't always the same case. MMA is eager to prove something. TMA feels like they shouldn't have to. If you feel so strongly about your theory, you should be willing to put your pride on the line. Nowadays, among the worst are Westerners trying to act Eastern with a bit of passive-aggression, trying to shove their humbleness down everyone's throats. Some cultures just don't mix very well.
"Our elders are often romanticized to be wise. But stupid people grow old too."
|
|
KyKarateka
Global Moderator
Kyokushin & Judo
Posts: 233
|
Post by KyKarateka on Aug 19, 2013 14:06:12 GMT -5
Problem with many TMAs are the abundance of McDojos which really reflects poorly on the rest which are not McDojos.
TMAs have been existent in Western society longer making them prone to commercialization. If we look at the sport of MMA we can see that it's just started it's growth in the past decade versus TMA which have been growing since 1950's.
In the future, I predict the commercialization of MMA and the further commercialization of TMAs to the point where the traditional training methods are near extinct.
|
|
odee
Global Moderator
Kyokushin 10 years - Brazilian Jujitsu 3 years - Muay Thai 2 years.
Posts: 1,286
|
Post by odee on Aug 20, 2013 17:23:43 GMT -5
My beef with a lot of people who call themselves "traditional" is that their training is NOTHING like the original training for that style. What traditional means in their case is 'gone soft then stagnated' or 'gone commercially soft then stagnated'.
Marketing has destroyed the reputation of styles like Karate and Taekwondo. Media like the 'Karate Kid' has given people the idea that Asian martial arts can teach you to fight without picking up a bruise. It attracts wimps and bully victims who are afraid of fighting, they get their black-belt and leave...still afraid of fighting because their school and teacher has given them the 'Karate Kid' I loved that movie and I'm grateful to it because it inspired my Kyokushin teacher to begin training but a better ending to that movie would have been Daniel getting his head kicked in because he'd never recieved sparring training.
Compliments that have turned sour. One of my Kyokushin teachers pointed out that an old saying is "Immitation is the sincerest form of flattery". I went back there late last year to visit my family and trained with my old school for a few nights and my teachers were delighted by how much of my Kyokushin training is still present in my sparring. They should be delighted. I've been training in BJJ and Muay Thai for nearly four years and I still think a lot of Kyokushin tactics and movements are not only valid they're the better way of doing things. That's when immitation is sincere flattery, when you have a basis for comparison. A lot of "traditional" schools have taken that saying to the point where believing that there is something you can't get from one teacher is a massive insult and that's just sad. It's proof that the teacher has no confidence in what they're teaching. Almost all TMA styles started out as MMA. The truest traditional mindset is that of a Mixed Martial Artist.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2013 2:35:54 GMT -5
I'm not disagreeing or having a go but can you mention some TMA styles that started out as MMA? I'd be interested in knowing for future reference.
|
|
odee
Global Moderator
Kyokushin 10 years - Brazilian Jujitsu 3 years - Muay Thai 2 years.
Posts: 1,286
|
Post by odee on Aug 21, 2013 18:38:39 GMT -5
Specifically?
All forms of Karate started out by combining the local wrestling style called 'tode' with different Wushu and Kenpo from China. Some evolved further with the addition of Japanese Jujutsu but I think I've told you all that before.
Taekwando is a combination of a Korean style called Tekkaeon (it's hard to find info on Tekkaeon I get a mix of info telling me it's a fighting style, other sources state it as a war-dance and others compare it to Capoeria), Karate from Japan and Judo.
Kenpo/Kempo is a mixture of Wushu styles that had more added as it made its way from China to Japan.
Jujutsu is claimed to be a mixture of Tekkaeon and Japan's local wrestling style.
Capoeria started out as a dance for slave fitness, the slaves hid sparring practice in the movements suggesting they already knew a bit about fighting, it's also had kickboxing mixed in a few times since it was recognized as a martial art.
Muay Thai is the evolution of Muay Boran through the addition of Western Boxing. Muay Boran and the Burmese martial art (it's name escapes me at the moment) evolved together because Thailand and Burma were constantly at war with one another.
I think Shaolin Tai Chi is the only Asian martial art that can claim a pedegree - it evolved from the athletic feats of Yoga rather than having some kind of military input. If a martial art evolves within the military it immediately becomes a mongrel because it is always influenced by what the enemy is doing.
|
|
KyKarateka
Global Moderator
Kyokushin & Judo
Posts: 233
|
Post by KyKarateka on Aug 22, 2013 1:05:42 GMT -5
Yeah, I heard about Tekkaeon as well. It's not very well researched so we don't know too much about it but I think of it as a parent style to Taekwondo.
|
|
odee
Global Moderator
Kyokushin 10 years - Brazilian Jujitsu 3 years - Muay Thai 2 years.
Posts: 1,286
|
Post by odee on Aug 22, 2013 20:16:58 GMT -5
I just found a wonderful saying that lordunagi might enjoy.
To be old and wise you must first be young and stupid - and survive.
|
|
|
Post by lordunagi on Aug 23, 2013 2:43:06 GMT -5
odeeHm.. this saying is more Mr. Miyagi than Steve Carell. It's missing the troll element. Appreciate the gesture though.
|
|
odee
Global Moderator
Kyokushin 10 years - Brazilian Jujitsu 3 years - Muay Thai 2 years.
Posts: 1,286
|
Post by odee on Aug 23, 2013 17:18:18 GMT -5
I'm not saying the stupid don't stay stupid and survive anyway but the old and wise were stupid themselves at one point. Love the Appachai Hoppachai avatar too. That show started out so promising.
|
|
|
Post by lordunagi on Aug 27, 2013 22:16:03 GMT -5
Thanks. The manga is still going and good though.
|
|
odee
Global Moderator
Kyokushin 10 years - Brazilian Jujitsu 3 years - Muay Thai 2 years.
Posts: 1,286
|
Post by odee on Aug 28, 2013 7:34:45 GMT -5
I know it's still going, I just lost interest when Kenichi kind of became super-powered himself. That's a problem with Martial Arts stories, eventually you have to have bad-guys who just aren't human anymore.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2013 21:06:25 GMT -5
Right im from a tradional back ground so here's my 2 cent worth, there is alot of shit out there, shit because its watered down and marketed to a new generation of people that want maximun reward for the lest amount of effort.. www.chansmartialarts.com/kf/index.html is a perfect example, Master S.C Chan holds a 5th degree blackbelt in TKD but now claims to be a kung fu master that teaches a stress free way of training that is effective, one of his blackbelts got killed bouncing, do you think it effected master? no because now this guy is a taichi master apparently making more money by teaching a watered down system. there thats my 2 cents worth probably way of tract but its free for all.
|
|
odee
Global Moderator
Kyokushin 10 years - Brazilian Jujitsu 3 years - Muay Thai 2 years.
Posts: 1,286
|
Post by odee on Oct 30, 2013 6:26:59 GMT -5
What do you class as a watered down system?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2013 15:05:38 GMT -5
twice ive writen a reply twice the net went down, il carry on with post when im back to my own network area.
|
|
|
Post by Glutton4Punishment on Nov 7, 2013 23:33:43 GMT -5
There is only one way to do things in a TMA most of the time. The answer is almost always "just keep doing it and you'll get it." But there is an infinite number of ways one can develop, an infinite number of ways one can approach a situation, an infinite number of body types one can have, and so on all in infinites. The best anybody can do is try all sorts of things. But in a TMA, the traditional way is the way. You're more likely to hear "Step out of your comfort zone and just experiment with things and see what works" in an MMA gym than ANY TMA SCHOOL from what I've seen. The TMA way seems to be "Just keep doing it this way, and don't change a thing." This can create clones who all fight the same way and don't have their own style. Of course this depends on the school and teacher, but I am generalizing and this is what I have found to be the approach of most TMA schools.
|
|