Chef Samurai
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Canadian Catch Wrestling
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Post by Chef Samurai on Nov 13, 2012 3:05:19 GMT -5
I don't think they put much more emphases on it than any kosen judoka did back then which was almost pure ground fighting.
Karate is a catch all phrase for dozens of styles of martial arts from the ryu kyu kingdom that were bastardized by the japanese who learned the basics of te from the natives.
Goju is closer to the real te of the ryu kyu kingdom while Shotokan is influenced by both judo & kendo.
Both are karate but goju is truer to real karate while shotokan is more akin to japanese martial arts and follows their principles that.
Shotokan is karate as in empty hand but Goju is karate as in Tang Hand.
So technically they are different styles but our phonetics system doesn't allow us to differentiate between the 2 properly.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2012 3:44:20 GMT -5
Maeda did Kosen Judo and Catch wrestling......fascinating. That would give BJJ a slightly different philosophy and techniques.
From what I have read, a lot of praise is placed on Carlos and Helio Gracie for the development of BJJ from the Judo they learnt. Bu what about the influence of Rolls Gracie? Some things I've read say he had s big influence on it especially with his cross training in Wrestling and to a lesser extent Sambo. And others say little.
What are your thoughts on the role that Rolls Gracie had on BJJ? and did he help to make BJJ a distinctly Brazilian martial art?
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Chef Samurai
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Post by Chef Samurai on Nov 13, 2012 10:19:52 GMT -5
Maeda was one of THOUSANDS of judoka who were doing judo & catch wrestling back in the old days because judo was an amateur sport whereas catch was a pro sport witch allowed many of the poor japanese to get rich quick.
But to clear things up old kosen judo was exactly like old judo minus the throws because most kosen judoka were terrible throwers so they focused on pulling guard & submissions instead of throws & submissions like most judoka which lead to kano changing the randori rules to prevent pulling guard & limited ground fighting.
So basically bjj is kosen judo lol
And the gracies didn't invent bjj, maeda did, the gracies invented gracie jiu jitsu and that totally leaves out maeda's other students like santana & his students who didn't do gracie jiu jitsu they did brazilian jiu jitsu instead.
The main thing I find about Helio not being able to do the judo moves because he wasn't strong enough I find to be bs because if your using strength to do a judo move that's the number one mistake any judoka can make because it's all about leverage & using yours and your opponents weight against them.
I don't know too much about Rolls Gracie but I do know Eddy Bravo did a lot for bjj (not gjj) in the past 10 years that's for sure.
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odee
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Kyokushin 10 years - Brazilian Jujitsu 3 years - Muay Thai 2 years.
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Post by odee on Nov 13, 2012 15:26:29 GMT -5
That's interesting. BJJ wasn't created by the Gracies. I'd love to see the proof of that. Even though Gracie Jiu-jitsu is the Jiu-jitsu side of what I practice I have some fanboy dojo-mates who would honestly cry at that knowledge.
Skill can only do so much, especially when the people you're up against are skilled as well. When skill is equal physical attributes become the deciding factor. Size, speed, strength, resiliance and being a freak can change a match dramatically. If Helio was/is as frail as they claim he probably would have been frequently clobbered by people of the same grade.
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Chef Samurai
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Post by Chef Samurai on Nov 13, 2012 21:45:45 GMT -5
People tend to use "Brazilian Jiu Jitsu" & "Gracie Jiu Jitsu" interchangeably for the all "Jiu Jitsu" from Brazil and leave out the other important contributors to the art who never learned from the Gracies like Oswaldo Fadda, Luis Fanca & . Mitsuyo Maeda > Luis França > Oswaldo Fadda > Monir Salomão > Julio Cesar > Rodolfo Vieira It's the gracie fanboys that are hiding the truth with their denial of non gracies contribution to overall bjj and refuse to believe there is a difference between gjj and bjj. It was maeda & ALL his students who created bjj not JUST the gracies but gracie jiu jitsu is the most POPULAR style. Heres some real info on the different styles of bjj not just gjj- www.bjjheroes.com/bjj-fighters/oswaldo-fadda-facts-and-biowww.sherdog.net/forums/f12/history-non-gracie-bjj-lineage-2109613/index6.htmlAll I konw Is I do gjj & my lineage is Mitsuyo Maeda > Carlos Gracie > Helio Gracie > Rolls Gracie > Romero Cavalcanti > Jeff Joslin > Me
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2012 23:08:33 GMT -5
Osvaldo Alves had a great influence too from what I've read.
There also seems to be debate over whether Carlos or Helio is the creator of GJJ. I'm leaning towards Carlos as the founder but Helio having a huge part in its development.
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odee
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Post by odee on Nov 15, 2012 17:00:10 GMT -5
You know I have no idea what the linage of my school is. I'm constantly told it's Gracie by my dojo-mates and the sign out the front but I've never bothered to look into that.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2012 20:34:29 GMT -5
How has BJJ changed in the post UFC days to how it was before the UFC?
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Post by kokoro on Dec 20, 2012 21:18:24 GMT -5
the way karate is a combination of chinese, thai land, vietnamese, filipino,and several other countries. yet most people consider it okinawan and few styles japanese
bjj had japanese influence but i would be consider it brazilian
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Chef Samurai
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Post by Chef Samurai on Dec 21, 2012 4:10:22 GMT -5
How has BJJ changed in the post UFC days to how it was before the UFC? I would say there is now more refined no-gi grappling and more focus on subs like guillotines and now every black belt makes some new move up like a peruvian neck tie or a twister or 50/50 guard or whatever so just about every school has some little difference from their training, often against and/or with people from other styles. Before BJJ was more or less a set curriculum (there are exceptions though) but after the gi was made illegal in mma, all the Jiujitero who wanted to be successful had to train with other grapplers who knew the no-gi game like Roberto Leitão at Nova União who also previously made great advances for Luta Livre (Brazilian Catch Wrestling) in the 70's. There's a ton more I missed but I'm going to sleep lol I'll add more later.
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odee
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Post by odee on Dec 30, 2012 17:52:15 GMT -5
I think the gi left the UFC at the same time as the Gracies. Kind of sad that somebody bothered banning it, the gi presents as many downfalls as it does advantages.
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Chef Samurai
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Post by Chef Samurai on Jan 19, 2013 15:57:17 GMT -5
yeah too true but it's too easy for jiujitero & judoka to dominate against people who don't use clothes & they get pwned no gi too often if they don't mix it up and train no-gi sometimes too.
I like an old hockey fighting trick that works great with a gi from a double shoulder grip that uses your arms as a wedges/wings to block punches and when they clinch you finally you smash their arm down and start a series of crosses while holding with your other hand still & finish up with an uppercut.
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odee
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Post by odee on Jan 19, 2013 18:41:04 GMT -5
I love that hockey still has light penalties for brawling. Too many sports are run by mother hens these days.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2013 19:49:40 GMT -5
I love that hockey still has light penalties for brawling. Too many sports are run by mother hens these days. So true, like how the NRL (National Rugby League) has outlawed the shoulder charge from this coming season..........if your scared, then don't play.
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odee
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Post by odee on Jan 19, 2013 19:59:37 GMT -5
The way NRL should be conducted
Pansies don't seem to understand that this is a TACTICAL brawl - It's not done out of malice, it was done in an attempt to take out a playmaker...it also failed miserably.
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