|
Post by gunter on Jul 2, 2012 22:23:13 GMT -5
Is Boxing a traditional or modern martial art?
I think it is traditional as it goes back hundreds of years but has evolved to its present style. A bit like Karate and Judo etc.
But others tell me modern because it is mainly a sport now.
Thoughts?
|
|
Chef Samurai
Global Moderator
Canadian Catch Wrestling
Posts: 843
|
Post by Chef Samurai on Jul 3, 2012 10:18:33 GMT -5
I think it's modern because no one does like they did in the old days & it's really a new style with the same name.
Boxing was never a martial art though it was the science of self defence instead.
When it became a sport that changed and it became a spot of punching.
But before that it was an interesting thing and everyone did it different & no 2 men had the same attitude or way of fighting.
That doesn't mean it was brawling or anything like that it just means everyone applied their stuff differently depending on their fencing tradition.
A good example is James Figg who was a master fencer & stick fighter and he applied his moves unarmed and used his front forearm like a buckler to parry blows and hit rear arm to return blows just like a fencer.
Just like modern Jeet Kune Do old school Pugilism was based on the idea of doing whatever works and everything was based on sound scientific principles like straight line hitting & offline footwork etc.
|
|
|
Post by the tank on Jul 3, 2012 10:35:35 GMT -5
I have to agree to samuraichef
Boxing used to have grappling at first, that was eliminated with modern rules. It's a martial sport now.
|
|
|
Post by jwbulldogs on Jul 3, 2012 11:05:53 GMT -5
I know boxing is considered a martial art. Personally I don't, but I don't argue it. My reasons are personal not historical.
However, it is not a traditional martial art. What traditions are being handed down from one generation to the next generation?
Boxing can be used for self defense, but today it is taught purely as a sport.
|
|
|
Post by gunter on Jul 4, 2012 1:00:22 GMT -5
What about Judo, BJJ, Karate and Taekwondo? They are often taught purely as a sport. Does that make them more Modern than traditional styles now? What about self defense ability?
|
|
|
Post by peppermillk on Jul 4, 2012 7:42:02 GMT -5
I know this isn't the way it works but I generally consider the eastern stuff to be traditional and western to be modern. Its just the way it looks for me. I see boxers and don't think of them as martial artists but as sports athletes.
|
|
|
Post by kokoro on Jul 4, 2012 8:05:04 GMT -5
mauy thai has been a sport since the 1500's do you consider that traditional or modern?
anything with rules or eliminates techniques because of rules is considered a martial sport. martial arts dont limit or eliminates techniques due to rules.
|
|
|
Post by jwbulldogs on Jul 4, 2012 12:08:23 GMT -5
What about Judo, BJJ, Karate and Taekwondo? They are often taught purely as a sport. Does that make them more Modern than traditional styles now? What about self defense ability? I was taught judo for self defense. We didn't focus on tournament judo even though we did compete also. We were taught how to defend against strikes and turn them into a throw or choke. We were taught to throw an elbow into the attacker before you throw them. We were taught to strike them after we take them down before we go for a variety of breaks. But if your judo dojo only teaches for tournament you are learning a sport. BJJ as far as I have been able to tell is just a sport. The few places that attempt to teach self defense don't have a clue on how to use their bjj in self defense situation even though they are technically sound for the ring/mat/cage. Proof of this can be seen in the video that I posted of some Gracies self defense. Karate, TKD it depends on the organization and local dojo. If the primary focus of their training is on competing they are more sport than traditional. If they are focused on creative kata they don't even have a style. Your kata is your style. creative kata is not a style it is just a routine with little or no applications. Spinning a kama around your finger is not self defense. Throwing your bo in the air and catching it behind your back is impressive to look at, but it is not self defense. If I'm going to throw my weapon it will be my sai. It will be thrown into the attackers foot and if I'm doing that I should have a spar sai to fight with. Most people don't know that you are supposed to have 3 sai. Kokoro, Muay thai is a sport. Muat boran on the other hand is a martial art. I don't think you can find too many places that teach muay boran.
|
|
|
Post by kokoro on Jul 4, 2012 13:34:44 GMT -5
JWBulldogs, yes that's correct, but the sports version started back sometime in the 1500's. i dont think i even know anyone or place that teaches muay boran, its an extremely rare art
to add to Jwbulldogs comments about kobudo, there were few kata you let go of your weapon, the only one that does come to mind are the ones he mentioned. your weapon rarely left your hands, if you dropped it in battle, you might not be able to recover it. you also rarely kicked in kobudo, more because it became an immediate target, and could easly be struck by your opponents weapon.
|
|
|
Post by Glutton4Punishment on Jul 4, 2012 18:04:16 GMT -5
Some styles don't fit purely into a modern or traditional mold. That would include, like people said, Judo. Also Kyokushin. There are shades of gray existing in everything.
|
|
Chef Samurai
Global Moderator
Canadian Catch Wrestling
Posts: 843
|
Post by Chef Samurai on Jul 4, 2012 19:16:09 GMT -5
I don't even understand the term traditional or modern.
bartitsu is a modern martial art created in the late 1800s while taekwondo is a traditional martial art created in the 1950s.
tkd doesn't follow tradition since it's not exactly like karate or taekyeon.
karate doesn't follow tradition because no one does it the way funokoshi did it unless they do shotokan which would mean only shotokan is traditional and all other styles aren't because they don't do it exactly like funokoshi did it and he was the 1st to call it karate so what he is doing is different than what the okinawans did.
judo doesn't follow tradition because it's not exactly like jujutsu which it's based on and most schools teach throws & a few arm lock & chokes so only the schools that know all the atemi waza & newaza are traditional because if not they are doing something different thus making it modern.
so it's all a bunch of bs in my eyes.
|
|
|
Post by jwbulldogs on Jul 5, 2012 1:02:16 GMT -5
Chefsamurai,
Actually karate predates shotokan. For example I study shorin ryu. It predate shotokan. It is still done the same way as its origin as far as I have been able to find. Nagamine passed and his son continued his son recently passed this year. They do have a successor, but I don't remember who that is. A quote for the son says that if you change the kata you are o longer doing the art. That is not verbatim, but you get the gist..
Judo and jujutsu are different arts. Kano as you know changed it. It too many years before people accepted that it was different. Kano purposely named it because it was different. It was meant to be different. It was never meant to be an Olympic Sport. He initially resisted it becoming an Olympic Sport. He later gave in, but I don't think he could have stopped it. He purpose was not like what many today say. They say he created it so that you could practice against full resistant opponents. This is not true or even close to being true. He was an educator. His desire was to have martial arts taught in schools. In its current form before the change the school would never agree to allow that type of violence be taught because of the injuries. He removed some of what was thought to be more dangerous techniques until the school said this could be taught in their PE classes.
The tournament judo is constantly changing removing certain throws or techniques for safety on who know what else. Many school are teaching a sport version of judo. But there are still some schools that are teach Judo that includes atemi. They still are teaching judo from the standpoint that you are being attacked and you use the art of judo to counter the attack. This is how I was being taught. I've been in other dojo that did not teach any self defense with their judo. What they taught is what my sensei referred to as tournament judo. We did compete, but the focus of our training wasn't on getting ready for the next tournament. We were taught to do some thing differently than what others did in tournaments.
One example is most people when thrown in tournament when turn to their stomachs and grip their gi high on the lapel to prevent you from choking them. They didn't care if you got their back. They knew that if their opponent didn't have a submission or pin with in e short time period they would stand you up again for you to continue the fight. But in our dojo we had better not ever just lay their like a dead fish. We had to finish the fight, We had better end the fight with a submission. If they laid their like a fish most people would step away knowing they weren't going to roll the guy over for a pin nor could they choke them out. But if they were going to be a fish we had to be an eagle. An eagle is a predator it attacks its prey. We had to work for the submission. Our symbol was an eagle. There are two type of birds you can be in our dojo. Only one was acceptable. You were either a buzzard or an eagle. A buzzard waited for some predictor to kill its prey then they go and eat what is left over or they just waited until some weak or sick animal dies in order to eat it. The eagle hunts, kills and enjoys the meal.
|
|
Chef Samurai
Global Moderator
Canadian Catch Wrestling
Posts: 843
|
Post by Chef Samurai on Jul 5, 2012 1:19:26 GMT -5
damn I thought it was called te & kempo before funokoshi named it karate I'm a real dumbass lol
I also thought he never learned all of the style he was taught and added japanese concepts to it just like itsou did with one strike, one kill thus changing it but I'm probably also wrong there too but I still think adding something or taking something away changes it.
If your judo dojo doesn't teach atemi-waza & all the ne-waza like leg locks & spine cranks but teaches it for self defence is it still traditional judo?
if so wouldn't that make boxing traditional too as long as the gym teaches it for self defence?
|
|
|
Post by kokoro on Jul 6, 2012 3:50:38 GMT -5
there are family lineages of karate which go back ages, the way the styles here named from the 20th century from the past has changed and makes it confusing.
|
|
odee
Global Moderator
Kyokushin 10 years - Brazilian Jujitsu 3 years - Muay Thai 2 years.
Posts: 1,286
|
Post by odee on Jul 10, 2012 5:09:31 GMT -5
@chef and JW I think that's up for debate. This is going to be difficult to explain without the characters but I was told that it was Chinese hand before Funakoshi renamed it Empty hand. The character is apparently the same for Chinese and Empty or they're pronounced the same or some little pun of that nature. So if that story is true JW is right that it was Karate before Funakoshi but it was Chinese hands and Chef is right that Funakoshi made it Empty hands.
|
|