Chef Samurai
Global Moderator 
Canadian Catch Wrestling
Posts: 843
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Post by Chef Samurai on Sept 5, 2012 1:54:51 GMT -5
@avatar- wow you really know your judo man I thought I knew a bit being a 2nd kyu but I gotta give you props.
I was more into it in off season in wrestling mostly because they fought so much different than you average wrestler and got really into it but I never payed too much attention to terms and stuff and related it mostly to wrestling moves with clothes on lol
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Post by jwbulldogs on Sept 5, 2012 18:52:56 GMT -5
Chef you learn those 3 chokes as a junior yellow belt. Those were the days!
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Post by jwbulldogs on Sept 5, 2012 18:56:23 GMT -5
I saw something interesting the Judomofo said. He likes to use Kesa gatame to submit people.
I never submitted anyone with that. I've seen a video with someone demonstrating that submission. But I never learn to use it as a submission. I've made people gas out with it, but never tried to submit anyone. I would be interested in learning to submit with it, also tate shiho gatame.
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Post by jwbulldogs on Sept 5, 2012 23:38:02 GMT -5
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Chef Samurai
Global Moderator
Canadian Catch Wrestling
Posts: 843
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Post by Chef Samurai on Sept 6, 2012 0:59:07 GMT -5
just like you guys teach axe kicks to white belts at your karate dojo that I've never even learned after 15 years of practicing martial arts lol
and for kesa gatame you can probably get a neck crank if you play with your grips on the collar and use your free leg to push off the ground.
with tate shiho gatame I think it can be used as a neck crank or choke but I'ts a bit more limited depending on how you have their arms because if I remember correctly there are a few variations of how you can hold their arms.
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Post by jwbulldogs on Sept 6, 2012 2:47:43 GMT -5
the one thing about judo the requirement for testing are the same in the USJA. It doesn't differ from dojo to dojo. It is clearly written in a book the requirement for each junior rank and senior rank. We learned additional things too, but what was required was concrete.
I was a junior rank student when I began judo. They didn't allow us to use submissions other than chokes. Kase gatame was to us a pin. But I have since learned that it is also a submission. Kesa gatame is taught at white belt. Tate shihi gatame is a smothering hold. I've gotten people to tap out when learning the technique/ But I have never gotten anyone to tap out in randori. Normally I would choke someone out. I didn't bother to put anyone in tate shiho gatame. I saw a video of kesa gatame being used to submit a guy. The couple of years ago maybe less I was working out with a pro mma guy. My sensei told me to pin him just to let him know there is a difference in working with guys that are much smaller than he is and that don't know anything. So I pinned him. Eventually I let him up. He wanted to keep going...lol Those mma/bjj guys they never quit. He said afterwards that he was going to wait until I tire out and then get me. He had tried to get out unsuccessfully. He thougt he could tire me out he said because he felt me use a lot of strength. He's a big strong guy that knows his stuff. I made a mistake when I was going to change into another pin. So when he was close to an escape and put the vice on him to make him give up on trying that until I could get a better position. When he relaxed so did I. I knew he was also a bjj guy and they wait you out until you make a mistake. Under judo rules you don't have that much time. You can win with a pin. You don't have to submit. Then he asked me why didn't I submit him. I could have. The submission he was talking about was ude garame (bent arm lock). Bus submission wasn't on my mind. I was instructed to pin him. Then later my sensei asked me why didn't I submit him. He wanted me to submit him with kesa gatame. My response was you told me to pin him. You didn't tell me to submit him. We are all good friends. He likes for me to come around and rough up his students when I can. I'll choke them out most of the time while standing. I'm too old to do all of the wrestling around on the floor. I have to conserve my energy.
I think the submission that judomofo was talking about was different than ending up with a arm or shoulder lock. It sounds like a modified choke.
Tate shiho gatame is a smothering hold.It's not really a choke, but thy can't breathe. It's kind of like you are smothering them. You use their arm to do it.
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Chef Samurai
Global Moderator
Canadian Catch Wrestling
Posts: 843
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Post by Chef Samurai on Sept 6, 2012 4:13:18 GMT -5
well here in canada we don't follow the united states judo federation eh and I was at an independent dojo that exists outside of america (there are such places lol) with ties to the old brittish army before we became our own country in the 1980s like lots of judo in canada eh
when I started all we were allowed to do was chokes & arm locks.
my favourite judo trick for mma & jiujitero (bjj practitioners) is tapping them out in my guard with do jime by squeezing their floating ribs (or liver, spleen and/or kidneys depending on your position) slowly like a constrictor snake with legs and my ankles locked then when they fully exhale you really crush with your thighs.
A lot of people don't know that jeet kune do/jun fan gung fu's ground syllabus is mostly judo for it's submissions straight from gene labell and I learned a ton from their too especially spine locks & neck cranks that are in the book from gene I posted that's really good.
I've never really been able to do anything myself with a scarfhold myself other than pin but I've read stuff online but I've never bothered with it really same with the Tate shiho gatame but if I remember you can crank their chin with their arm bent at a proper angle or something but again I never tried it but if I find it again I'll post it.
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Post by The Last Airbender on Sept 6, 2012 14:20:29 GMT -5
well here in canada we don't follow the united states judo federation eh and I was at an independent dojo that exists outside of america (there are such places lol) with ties to the old brittish army before we became our own country in the 1980s like lots of judo in canada eh when I started all we were allowed to do was chokes & arm locks. my favourite judo trick for mma & jiujitero (bjj practitioners) is tapping them out in my guard with do jime by squeezing their floating ribs (or liver, spleen and/or kidneys depending on your position) slowly like a constrictor snake with legs and my ankles locked then when they fully exhale you really crush with your thighs. A lot of people don't know that jeet kune do/jun fan gung fu's ground syllabus is mostly judo for it's submissions straight from gene labell and I learned a ton from their too especially spine locks & neck cranks that are in the book from gene I posted that's really good. I've never really been able to do anything myself with a scarfhold myself other than pin but I've read stuff online but I've never bothered with it really same with the Tate shiho gatame but if I remember you can crank their chin with their arm bent at a proper angle or something but again I never tried it but if I find it again I'll post it. In Judo we call that Do Jime. It's illegal in competition but we do it at my dojo. |
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Post by jwbulldogs on Sept 6, 2012 15:38:59 GMT -5
There are other places outside of the US? Really? LOL I believed that it was understood that I'm in the US. Therefore my perspectives will come from my experiences. I know I've said something in the past about how liked that about judo over than karate. Everything in judo is very organized. You have all of your requirement are the same no matter where you go. If you compete you rank and history are all recorded and stored electronically. If I go to renew my card it will say that I'm a lifetime member and my rank and age. This prevents some of the things I've seen in karate. In karate I've seen guy that have moved down in age and or rank in certain tournaments. It doesn't make sense to me for a nationally high ranked person lower their age a few years and move their rank down to yellow or orange. That's sad. It really bothers me when they are children doing this because it is their parents that are signing their paperwork. Some instructor may be approving this too. I can say parents did this when I saw mom or dad cheering their much older child on while fighting against children 4 years younger. They call the age and rank before the begin to compete to tell you which ring you are in. I've had I don't know how many parent walk up to me to tell me which kids were too old or high of rank to compete against my undersized son. I would just say okay and let my son fight and beat them anyway. The kids will even tell you how old they are after they have gotten their awards. My son took 1st. He got some bruises from fighting the bigger, stronger older guy. My son introduced me to the guy. They were sitting and talking hours after their fight.
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Post by The Last Airbender on Sept 6, 2012 15:48:21 GMT -5
Also, the Kesa Gatame Judomofo uses, he compresses their body. When they exhale he leans on them so each time their breath is shorter and less until they can't breathe at all and suffocate. It's slow, but effective if you can keep them under you.
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Chef Samurai
Global Moderator
Canadian Catch Wrestling
Posts: 843
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Post by Chef Samurai on Sept 6, 2012 16:21:20 GMT -5
@avatar- yeah I know it's illegal in tournament but in a real fight anything goes lol and I love it instead of just regular guard and that's kinda how the do jime works too I never thought about it
@jw- we have independent dojos here in canada and many are linked to ww2 judo with no affiliation to the ijf or usjf and many go by the name jiu jitsu even though they teach judo.
my sifu's sifu was a real judoka who learned it in the canadian army during world war 2 not just a judo athlete and he knew a ton of leg locks and even atemi-waza but he never showed it to us but he said the old canadian army ww2 hand to hand system was all judo meant for fighting to the death not just for fun like the sport.
from my experience most good judoka in canada come from the army lineages and not ija.
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Post by jwbulldogs on Sept 6, 2012 16:27:36 GMT -5
I saw he said that. I have to see that one. I don't know how he is doing that. I have an image in my head, but I'm not sure. When I used kesa I had the head and neck locked in pretty good not the body.
Chef
I forgot I have done tate shiho gatame in randori, but never in competition. In randori I was in another dojo. My wife who was my GF at the time joined this dojo with me. We were new. She had never trained prior and hadn't learned any throws. I had stepped off of the mat do get some of my work done for payroll. Being self employed you work all of the time. She hadn't learned any throws. The only thing that she had been taught at that point was an escape from a pin. They did a lot of ne waza. She came and got me and asked me to get this brown belt. She tried to tell him to stop, but he was insisting on doing randori because the sensei called for it. She wasn't going to leave me alone plus she wanted me to teach him a lesson. So I put away my books got back on the mat. I threw him with several different throws at ease. The sensei I saw him watching me and smile saying yes he is Bushido. That was the name of my first dojo. We had a good rep. Then after throwing him at will I decided to pin him. So I pinned on the next throw. I used kata gatame, then I switched to kesa, to yoko shiho gatame to tate shiho gatame. Then I let him up to do it again. This was givening me practice on how to transition from one pin to another. If they didn't stop it. I was going to start making him tap out next.
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