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Post by jwbulldogs on Aug 22, 2012 20:03:38 GMT -5
I don't happen to agree with you that you are born that way. I believe that it is a choice. I chose to marry my wife. I chose the type of girls and women that a dated prior to being married. I decided what I liked in a woman. Those were choices that I consciously made. I have family that are homosexual. At one time or another they dated people of the opposite sex, but later chose to the same sex. No one forced them to do date either sex. I know of women that were physically/mentally abused by one or more men. After suffering that abuse they chose to date women because the men that were in their lives were abusive. That was a choice that they made. I know of men that were sexually abused by males when they were young whom later began to date other men. This became the norm for them because of their previous abuse. They often choose to date men.
personally I believe in the Bible. I believe what the bible says about homosexuality. It is a sin. It is not a greater sin than any other sin. All sin is sin. All unrighteousness is sin. I believe man and woman were made to procreate. 2 men or 2 women can reproduce with the help of the opposite sex. Humans are not asexual.
It has become politically correct to say or even believe that a person is born that way. That your choice to be politically correct or not. I choose not to be politically correct.
Just like I don't believe in love at first sight. Many people claim to have fallen in love at first sight. I believe that it is lust at first sight for some, but never love. Love is some that is developed over time as you get to know the person's true character. Many relationships today do not last because there was really no love. It was only lust or infatuation.
I don't condemn a person because of their choices. They will have to live with their choices just like I must live with my choices. I'm accountable for the choices that I make. The next person is accountable for the choices that they make.
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Post by youxia on Aug 22, 2012 20:45:43 GMT -5
You make a good point actually, but bringing up the point of psychological damage, and it becoming the norm, is that anymore of a choice? Am I right in saying the bible prohibits eating pork because it was dangerous to eat in those times (because it was hard to cook right or something), perhaps it's a similar issue?
And I don't think it's an issue of political correctness, it just seems to be how it is. I personally don't think it's a choice because I'm straight and it wasn't a decision, I think it's sexuality is just built in. And what you said about deciding what you like in a woman, I can't see it as a decision, for me you just see something you like and just think "I like that".
Although I do disagree with your opinion, I admire how you present it.
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odee
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Post by odee on Aug 22, 2012 21:00:31 GMT -5
You can't choose your tastes JW. It might not be convenient but you can't choose what appeals to you either, those things just develop, the things you do and experience in life might influence that development but once it has developed that way you can't just announce that you enjoy the things that have never appealed to you. I can't just suddenly decide I do enjoy big chunks of onion and force my brain to believe it, I can't just up and decide that I suddenly think porridge doesn't have the texture of vomit and like it. People's tastes in bed partners aren't a quick choice, they've developed that way for whatever reason and it takes more than a choice to change them.
Whatever leads a guy to believe that another guy is more appealing than a girl is anyone's guess but once that taste has properly taken root it's not so easy to budge as a choice.
Another good example would be bisexuals, their tastes have developed to make sex more appealing to the point where sex itself matters more than the gender of the person they're having it with.
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Post by jwbulldogs on Aug 23, 2012 0:58:20 GMT -5
I beg to differ Odee. I hated broccoli at one time in my life. Now it is my favorite vegetable. Even "science" says you can change what appeals to your taste buds according to my biology and nutritional teachers last semester. As far as women are concerned I used to go for skinny. But I now prefer a woman with some curves. It doesn't matter if they are tall, short, or their ethnicity. The look is what 1st appeals. Then I look for intelligence to keep me interested. They must also be good to me. My taste in women have changed or evolved.
There have been many people that have once said that they were straight, bisexual, or bisexual that have changed their minds only to become something different than what they first said. Some have changed their minds multiple times. Some were changed based upon the experiences. Others I have no idea why they change.
Oh, I almost forgot. As a young child I used to love tomatoes. I'd pick one out of the garden and rinse it off and eat it like it was an apple. But one day I bit into one and from they day forward I hated tomatoes. It couldn't even touch my food. Then in my late teens or early 20's I began to eat tomatoes again. I used to like coke soda. But now the smell of it makes me ill. My taste has changed.
As a child I didn't like white milk. I loved chocolate milk. I could only drink white milk in my cereal. But one day even drinking the milk in my cereal made me sick. But I could still drink chocolate. But one day that made me sick too. Then I began mixing the strawberry Quick in my milk in order for me to drink it. That work, but it was temporary. I couldn't keep any milk down. I'm not lactose intolerant either. I have no problem with other milk products like cheese, etc. I can use milk in things that I cook with no problem.
youxia, When the abuse tool place that person didn't have a choice. But the choice is when they choose to abuse another or when they choose to act on a lust for the same sex. I see my taste in what i like in women as a choice. I like legs. I choose that feature in a woman that stands out to me. I like intelligent women. That is a choice that I have made. They must bring more to the table than being cute or good in bed. I desire a woman to be my equal or better than me. Those are choices that I have consciously made. Just like my favorite color is blue and I don't like wearing green. It is not part of my genetic code. It is something that I chose. Some guys prefer blondes and some red heads. I choose them all, I don't discriminate. I've dated women that will not date men of their own ethnicity. While I don't understand it, but it is their choice. Only one of the could give me a reason. She had been abused by men of her ethnicity. Therefore, she associated abusive men as being of her ethnicity. So she only dates men of my ethnicity. I attempted to convince her not to judge them all the same and that it was she was just with the wrong guys, but she couldn't see past what had happened in her past.
We all make choices everyday. Often the choice we make we do them unconsciously.
Odee said, "People's tastes in bed partners aren't a quick choice, they've developed that way for whatever reason and it takes more than a choice to change them".
I agree that they are developed. But they are developed by the choices that we make. Sometime it is a conscience choice other time it is unconscious choice.
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Post by youxia on Aug 23, 2012 17:55:33 GMT -5
But you can't help notice, while it really isn't politically correct, that gay people do tend to have a lot in common. Like the way some of them talk ect. Obviously I don't mean every homosexual is like this, and I don't mean to offend anyone, but this does point towards it being genetic. And I don't know how to phrase it without it sounding bad, but it could maybe be like a syndrome or something. And I don't mean like it's a disability or it's bad or anything, it's just a theory. There's other stuff which might go along with this like bonobo chimps being bisexual, and I read ovulating women being able to tell if a mans gay from his face. That and gay people saying they were born gay just seems to me like it isn't a choice, but then again I don't know of any definitive answer, so I guess theres a lot of speculating involved. But gay people saying they were born gay just rings true, I couldn't just start having it away with men, so I really don't think it's a decision.
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Post by jwbulldogs on Aug 23, 2012 19:00:34 GMT -5
I respectfully disagree. I've seen gays that talk or act differently. But there are many others that are not gay/lesbian and you have no idea that they are unless they make it known. The ones that act a certain way go to an extreme in the case of men to be accepted as a woman to act the way that they think women act. However, I personally don't know any women that act like that. These men become the stereotype that are seen on TV or the movies. If they were born that way how do you explain the many that were straight and decide to be with a person of the same sex after having failed relationships with people of the opposite sex?
I can't speak on the chimp except to say that we are not chimps. Just because the say there were born that way doesn't make it so. People often say many things that aren't true.
You could start having it away with men, but it is your choice not to. It is no different than not lusting and acting out to form a relationship with an attractive family member.
If it were true that people are born gay it would be equally true that people are born pedophiles. They say that it is natural for them. They consider that normal behavior. But the majority of society look at it as being sick or disturbed. The say they are born that way and some want equal right to be openly pedophiles.
I just read a news report yesterday. A woman and 2 men were arrested for trying to find a dog for the woman to have sex with while the men watch. They say they are swingers. She is apparently married to one but they are in an open relationship. She told her husband that she wanted to have sex with a dog. They searched on Craigslist to find a dog for sex. Is that also natural? For her it is if you ask her?
I'd say it was a choice she made that I disagree with.
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odee
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Post by odee on Aug 23, 2012 19:13:18 GMT -5
All the things you pointed out happened naturally, you didn't choose any of them. If you want to prove me wrong I'd encourage you to give up Broccolli, make tomatoes your favorite fruit again and hold your milk down like a normal person. The only way you're going to manage it is if you're drastically stubbourn enough to prove me wrong. More than mere choice.
I can choose spur of the moment between blonde or brunette but it would take something far more drastic than choice alone to make me desire guys over girls. That's the difference between choice and developed tastes.
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Post by jwbulldogs on Aug 23, 2012 19:15:09 GMT -5
Back to the pedophiles. At one time and even now in some cultures it is normal behavior for a 30 plus man to marry a young 12 year old girl. But most cultures no longer accept that as being normal. Society influenced the change. It became politically incorrect. Just like today the climates of our culture have become more accepting of homosexuality. It has become politically correct. Leader in the homosexual community have caused other to be afraid to speak up and say that they disagree. No one wants to be labeled as being homophobic. They have aggressively pushed their agenda and would label anyone that that spoke against them as being hateful and fearful. They will talk about discrimination. Of course most people don't want to be thought of as being a bigot, old fashion, hateful, or fearful. We all like to be known as being progressive, accepting, and tolerant.
These aggressive spokespersons are often well educated. They have ready made responses to any argument that may be brought up. They know how to turn the tables and make their argument look like they are victims and if you disagree you are part of the group that are victimizing them. They are extremely articulate and persuasive. The tactics that they used were effective. My hat is off to them, but I still disagree with them.
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Post by jwbulldogs on Aug 23, 2012 19:24:43 GMT -5
Odee,
i can be very stubborn. I could easily give up broccoli or tomatoes. I did it for candy, all soda, alcohol. Not only was it a choice but it required a lifestyle change. Whether it is developed over time or an instant choice it is still a choice.
Have you ever dated or thought about dating a person that you were not attracted too? They were not that type of person that you would find attractive. They kind of grow on you? It happens all of the time. But you have to choose on whether you act on it or not.
I chose not to eat tomatoes for many years. I later chose to eat tomatoes. My point is that tastes do change. Even your beloved science agrees with that.
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Post by jwbulldogs on Aug 23, 2012 19:33:10 GMT -5
I'm not sure if you missed it. I do enjoy tomatoes. I can't say that it has ever been my favorite. I don't know if I have a favorite. One day when my mother was over for dinner she saw my wife putting tomatoes on my plate. My mother began to explain that I hated tomatoes and that I've hated them since i was young. My wife told her that he eats them now. I came downstairs unaware of what was going on. My mother asked me to tell her that i don't eat tomatoes. I had to explain that I enjoy them then. I was uncomfortable being in the middle of that. After I explained to my mom how I started eating them again she was able to accept it she just didn't know about my choice to tr them again and liking them.
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Post by youxia on Aug 23, 2012 20:12:16 GMT -5
I've always just seen paedos and animal abusers as severley messed up people. I've always really struggled with that topic, I just can't understand how people can do things like that. It's touched on the more difficult subject of the existance of evil, I've heard quite a few stories about paedophiles and the like, and I normally try to look at things balanced, but some of the things people like that do are just evil, I just can't understand people doing things like that without thinking they must be severelly messed up, It's hard to think people would choose to do that.
As for it being accepted in earlier cultures, I can only think that it was for people taking advantage when their weren't as many laws. Surley that couldnt have ever been the view of all people back then?
And I don't think gay and paedos/animal abusers really a fair comparison, gay stuff is between two consenting adults, then I suppose that should be fine if they love each other and everything.
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odee
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Post by odee on Aug 23, 2012 20:22:06 GMT -5
I never said they don't change, I said there are changes you have no choice in or require something drastic to force a change. You just said it yourself, you were forced to give alcohol, soda and sweets up for health reasons, that's drastic. Yes I did miss the part about liking tomatoes again but considering your lack of counter to the milk I'd say I've got you there. Homosexuals have been assaulted, pummelled and tortured and still been unable to give up their tastes. If it was a simple choice you think they wouldn't have avoided a hell of a lot of suffering?
No I honestly haven't done that. All the girls I've dated (all three of them) were my friends long before I even considered asking them out, they were all people I enjoyed hanging out with on a day to day basis. They posessed many of the features that I found attractive, two couldn't deal with me getting busted up on a regular basis and lost out to Martial Arts, they have no problem with it when I'm not attached to them and the fact martial arts won over sex and friends makes it pretty clear it was more than mere choice, the other one just drifted away. All three are still friends but there wasn't a single thing I knew about them that would have made me iffy about asking them out. That's just the kind of person I've grown up to be, I get to know people before I even consider dating them. Science tells me tastes change, it also tells me they can be so deep that mere choice is often no counter for them.
Oh, and on the subject of any kind of rapist I believe they should be treated like rabid animals. The animal doesn't choose the problem but unless it can be cured they should be destroyed for safety's sake.
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Post by jwbulldogs on Aug 24, 2012 13:38:09 GMT -5
youxia
We call them pedophiles today. But it was common for an 40 year old man to marry a 12 year old girl. If a girls wasn't married by the time she reached like 16 or 17 she was thought of as an old maid. There was no taking advantage of at that time. This was part of the culture. In fact there are still some cultures that says this is normal and it works in their society. BY the time a man reached his 30's he was able to afford to care for a family and could provide for them. A girl at the age of 12 or 13 could in fact have children and it was believed that she should give a man children before it was tool late. Most likely she didn't work outside of the home. There were no career women. I did some research about 10 years ago for a paper I was writing for an anthropology class. The group of people that I studied even though they are modernized now were at one time hunter and gathers. They still have not given up all of their past culture. They work to hold on to many of their traditions. One of those traditions that they still keep is the marrying of the father of a 12 year are girl is given to a well to do 30 or older man. After their wedding night he comes out of his home and runs through the streets parading around with the bloody sheet to let everyone know that she was still a virgin. That is important in their culture.
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Post by jwbulldogs on Aug 24, 2012 14:25:48 GMT -5
Odee,
I don't know if you are being truthful or being funny when you said all 3. If you were being truthful I say I commend you. Not all of us can say we have taken that much time to get to know a woman. But I think we should. I didn't always think like that. I had to mature a lot before I changed.
We are humans. We always have choices. Sure there are things in our environment that helps to shape or define how we make choices, but in the end we always have a choice. Often a person that has been abused as a child grows up to be an abuser. But there are those that were abused make a choice and decide never to abuse anyone like they were abused. Not all gay men were sexually abused as a child. However, there are studies that show that many of them were sexually abused as a child. While I can't prove this, but I believe there are those that will not admit to that abuse. Meaning the number that were abused might grow. But I do not believe that they all were abused.
I like you agree that there should be some severe punishment for an animal that would rape or harm another, especially a child.
No I wasn't forced to give up candy, soda, or alcohol. I'm not sure where you got that. Maybe I typed something incorrectly or didn't do a very good job of expressing myself.
I was a child and ate a lot of sugary candy. One day after coming home from the store I noticed how much candy I was buying. I made a choice and decided to stop eating it. Pretty much the same thing for soda. I just decided to give up soda. Alcohol was much different. I wasn't a big drinker. I only drank when I went out to places that had a 2 drink minimum. I ordered my drink because you had to by a drink. At first I wold get a coke, which I felt was too high for a glass of soda and you don't even get the whole can....lol It was only .50 more to add the rum so I would order a rum and coke. I could nurse one drink and it wold last all night. Other than that I drank socially when a friend or relative stopped by. I kept some Bacardi or Tequila to make a daiquiri or margarita. Occasionally we might do some shots. One day I chose to stop going to those clubs. I chose to stop drinking. I would still order a soda if I went out to dinner because of my ego. I felt like people were going to look at my funny if I ordered water or that they were going to think I got water trying to save money or I was being cheap. But one day I decided I didn't care what they thought. I like water and that was what I was going to order. These were choices that I made.
Since then before everyone started to be more health conscience my server would bring me a soda even though I asked for water. I would remind them of what I asked for and they would say I could keep it it is on the house. I would tell them thank, but I let them know that I preferred water. They thought they were being nice. This would even happen to me in fast food places. The girl that took my order would give me a soda. Some would even flirt and tell me they gave me the soda. Again I would have to explain that I like water and that I don't drink soda. The only time it bothered me when this happens is when I didn't know it was soda. They may put a Sprite in my cup instead of water. I expect to taste water and It wasn't water. My 1st thought are this is the worst water, but I soon realize it is soda and it isn't bad. It is just not what I wanted or was expecting. If I'm inside I'll go to the counter to get water. If I went through drive thru I just pour out the soda and complain...lol
Yes many gay people have been assaulted and have suffered many different types of abuses. But that doesn't mean they have a desire to change. they still make a choice. Just like you choose to train in the brutal form of karate that you have chosen. You don't have to take that abuse. But you choose to take it. When working on certain techniques especially pain compliance techniques most people avoid being the uke. I volunteer for the job. That is one of the reason why I said that anyone in martial arts must be a little crazy. You must be crazy to put your own body through the types of things that we do willingly.
Why do some women stay in abusive relationships? In most cases they can choose to end the relationship. They can leave. They can report it. Some have family that would take care of the guy that hurt them. Some not all women make poor choices to stay with the abuses for a variety of reasons. Some say it is love. Some out of fear. Some because of low self esteem. I'm sure there maybe other reasons. But in the end they make a choice. It may be a conscience or unconscious choice but hey do choose. Unless they are being forcibly held prisoner they are making a choice.
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Post by Possum on Aug 24, 2012 14:50:18 GMT -5
Well this topic has certainly wandered!
I side with the "it's not a choice" crowd. From time immemorial, gays have been shunned, tortured, murdered, and generally hated. But that didn't stop them from acting on their impulses. If you want proof today, just go to Iran and look atop any construction crane. They hang young kids for being gay, and they do it in a very humiliating way. I doubt anyone would choose to adopt a lifestyle that in these not-so-obscure cases result in such brutality.
Although I am a Christian, I flatly disagree with the Bible for the ironic same reason that people agree with it: We see our only means of propagation (survival of the species) is through relations between man and woman. That is engrained in our DNA - for the same reason that sex is pleasurable. Sort of God saying like "Not only do you HAVE to do it this way, but you WANT to do it this way".
But evolution (which I also subscribe to) teaches us that occasionally, life (even today) isn't always like that: a particular species survival often depended on one or the other in a couple changing sexes in order that propagation may occur. With today's mucking around with DNA using genetics, chemicals, and radiation, it is not a far stretch of the imagination that someone's DNA is built (or changed) either that their sexual preference is off-kilter, or that some primordial switch is in the odd direction? Perhaps this is the case with those who later in life change their orientation. We don't really know, and unless we are allowed to question young children's sexual preferences, we may never really know.
I think being gay is not the norm, but rather the luck of the draw. Why are people autistic? Deformed? Schizoid? Or any other thing that society deems "abnormal"? I don't think it's a choice for most, I think it was the hand that was dealt to them.
Sorry for the soapbox.
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