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Post by jwbulldogs on Sept 20, 2012 23:54:29 GMT -5
That is a pretty bad generalization. Every fish lives in water that they poop in. If that is the case they are all filthy. That completely removes the argument. They are no dirtier than any other fish. It is a scientific fact that their body create a protective coating that is to thick for smaller fish. It is not dirty or filth. It is done to protect them from their environment. This is why I choose not to own them unless I get them as a feeder fish for me other fish, like Oscar, Jack Dempsey, Eels, or Arowana. When I had salt water I fed them to my Lion fish or crabs.
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odee
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Post by odee on Sept 21, 2012 9:04:48 GMT -5
Maybe I'm not making myself clear here. The goldfish's own faeces is not what I'm getting at, it's the fact that natural wild ones thrive in human made sewer channels just like New York rats in sewer systems and prematurely flushed goldfish as well ironically enough. Goldfish will survive where other fish will catch infection and die. Frogs are naturally slimy as both a protection from predators and the effects of the sun but if the water isn't clean the frogs will either pack up and move or die, given the same conditions the goldfish will survive because like the rat filth is kind of their niche. The slime isn't the first thing a person cringes at when they have to pick up a healthy, happy goldfish, they cringe at the horrible water they have to reach into to get it out.
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Post by jwbulldogs on Sept 22, 2012 3:47:28 GMT -5
I can't speak on goldfish is sewer water. The post was about pets. If you take a pet gold fish which is a controlled environment and place them in filthy water conditions the goldfish might survive a little long than some other fish, but the goldfish in most cases will die due to shock. This is why when you but a pet fish you are supposed to slowly acclimate them to your tank. You float them in a bag to allow the water temperature to be the same in the tank and in the bag. Then you are supposed to add some tank water to the bag and bag water to the talk. You do this over time until there is no difference between the tank water and bag containing the fish. When people don't follow those steps they often lose fish or cause an outbreak of ick in there tank which can kill every fish in the tank if untreated. Goldfish are a little more hardy than some species and stand a better chance of surviving, but people lose them too all of the time. You learn to follow those steps more when you start buying more expensive fish that don;t have a guarantee. I know I did when I was raising salt water fish. You have to even check the saline level.
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odee
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Post by odee on Sept 23, 2012 1:31:15 GMT -5
You say hardy I say designed for filth.
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Post by jwbulldogs on Sept 23, 2012 22:20:26 GMT -5
Other fish like guppies, mollies are also called hardy. They have the ability to withstand all types of harsh conditions and live through it. While other fish like neon tetras will only survive under a limited amount of conditions. Examples: I can take 10 goldfish, mollies, guppies and throw them in a tank without floating them or acclimating them to the difference in the water chemically. There is a chance that 7 out of the 10 will survive and adjust to those conditions. On the other hand if I take fish like tetras, betas, angelfish, and some catfish and do the same there is a good chance that within 24 hours 9 of the 10 will die. Being hardy simply means they are easy to care for. This not only applies to fish it applies to plants. Some plants can only survive in certain environmental conditions. A hardy plant may survive transplanting, poor soil conditions, extreme temperatures hot or cold.
A hardy fish such as a goldfish has the ability to survive in harsh conditions. it survives in poor water conditions. Mollies, and guppies are a few fish that can acclimate going from a freshwater talk to a saltwater tank and survive and even reproduce. A goldfish is one of the fish of choice to use as feeders in a saltwater tank because of price and because they are hardy enough that they will live long enough to be eaten by predator fish. Other fish may die quickly. The predator like a lion or scorpion fish will not eat them unless alive. Dead fish that aren't removed will pollute the tank and can kill your other fish.
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odee
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Post by odee on Sept 24, 2012 9:09:44 GMT -5
There's a difference between surviving a neglected tank and doing better because of it, just like there is a difference between surviving a shit stream and thriving in it. Catfish don't do well with sudden changes but just like the goldfish, the more unappealing an ecosystem appears to be to us the better they seem to take to it. I know what runs into the swamp in the middle of town and it ain't pleasant, I've never encountered a frog there or even a toad it's so nasty and with that knowledge I doubted that many fish would live there but four species are abundant. Goldfish, Koi, Catfish and Eels. That water is nasty but those fish thrive in it because they're designed to live in filth.
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Post by Possum on Sept 24, 2012 11:07:30 GMT -5
I can't keep a gourami, molly, or moore more than a week or two to save my life. I have some goldfish and fantails that do well, though admittedly in a crowded tank. On the other hand, I've got a danio that's lasted twice it's normal life expectancy. I've always thought danios were sensitive, but it's doing well with a 6 year old pleco in an algae-infested tank.
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Post by jwbulldogs on Sept 26, 2012 22:48:16 GMT -5
Actually the danios is a hardy fish too. This is why it is recommended for starter tank to help the tank go through it cycle. If the tank is overcrowded that can cause the nitrites to spike. If that happens you can poison your fish. Some fish are not suitable tank mate for certain fish. If you have your goldfish in the tank with the mollies the mollies won't do well. If you have sail fin mollies they might do better as they are larger fish and have larger gills. The only fish that do well with gold fish are larger fish and some larger bottom dwellers like channel cat, large plecostomus. The danio are more sensitive in tank conditions when it involves laying their eggs. The can lay eggs in captivity, but don't do it often because of the tank condition. It has to have the right temperature and the right water condition to lay eggs. They will lay eggs right on the gravel but they don't survive often because other tank mates will eat them. A great fish to lay eggs in the tank are Red Jewels. These Cichlids are protective of their eggs and fry. If you introduce a male and a female to a new tank they will soon lay eggs if you have either a empty clay pot or some slate in the tank. The mother and father will take turns watching over the fish and helping them hatch. They will become very territorial in the tank and fight or kill anything off in the tank that tries to come near. They will make a big cichlid like an Oscar stay on one side of the tank. If you let them mate and lay eggs and wait until the eggs hatch and move the to another tank they will spawn again and lay more eggs. If there is no other fish in that tank you can end up with a lot of babies. They lay hundreds of eggs.
That pleco is probably in heaven loving that abundant supply of algae. If your tank doesn't have enough algae they will starve to death.
Odee,
The fish is not designed to thrive in filch. It is just hardy enough that it can adapt to poor water conditions. Those conditions are not ideal.
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odee
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Post by odee on Sept 27, 2012 10:55:16 GMT -5
The goldfish is, the catfish is and the eels certainly are because that is where you find them in the wild, living in sewerage canals, living in swamps and living in black water. I believe in evolution and those fish evolved for nasty water because there is less competition. If you believe in intelligent design they were made to be at home in the nasty. That is their niche. Just like a salt water fish heads for salt and a fresh water fish heads for fresh water a filth water fish thrives in the muck like it is supposed to.
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Post by Possum on Oct 1, 2012 7:44:08 GMT -5
Thanks Jw. I have an oscar and pleco, and they're doing well. I've got a danio and pleco, and they're doing well. I've got mini danios (I don't know their name) and a pleco, all doing well; and a crowded tank of goldfish. No pleco here, but I think it would do well there. I've finally found a balance where everyone's happy. But with 4 tanks, it's real hard to keep up with their management.
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Post by the tank on Oct 1, 2012 9:34:43 GMT -5
I'm impressed about the knowledge people have here, I wish I had known this when I had fish.
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Keyboard Warrior
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Post by Keyboard Warrior on Oct 1, 2012 21:12:51 GMT -5
I dunno about not dirty JW. Goldfish actually come from shit creeks and streams in China and Japan. If you create a truly natural ecosystem goldfish tend to lose their sparkle and go back to a bronze colour. Wouldn't work for Black Moores because they're unnatural freaks but real goldfish like Comets, Commons and Flair-tails will become a murky colour that makes it impossible to see them. Same thing with cockroaches. They're cleaner than humans are, but they get a nasty reputation. When in reality they're built to withstand alot of shit. They're perfect in many ways.
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Post by Possum on Oct 2, 2012 20:34:42 GMT -5
@keyboard - you're right. It's not the roaches you should be afraid of. it's the REASON you found them - that's what you should be afraid of! :-)
Still, I'll return a salad containing a roach before I return a salad with my waiter's thumb on a tomato, even though there's a 50% chance that thumb didn't get washed when its owner came out of the bathroom... :-(
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Post by jwbulldogs on Oct 20, 2012 1:52:58 GMT -5
KW,
You may not know, but as a person that has spent a lot of money killing and raising tropical and saltwater fish. I had oft do a lot of research in order to stop losing so many fish. It meant a lot more to many when I was raising saltwater as a cheap fish back then was $50 to $75. It was nothing to have a fish that was $350.00. Pet stores do not guarantee saltwater fish like they do with freshwater. This is because the saltwater fish has to have more of the water conditions correct or the fish will die. They don't adapt very well to harsh water conditions. But certain fish like goldfish, guppies and mollies do. These fish are used as feeder fish for saltwater fish. They will last longer in salt tank than a danio, barb, pleco, etc. They can even be acclimated to survive in a saltwater tank. Most people don't know that. After being informed about this I went and got some books and experimented and was able to have these fish in my salt water tank. I even had mollies to reproduce in salt. There are reasons why you don't put goldfish in tanks with your tetras. They are not enemies, but the heavy coat used to protect the goldfish from parasites and other things will in time affect the water and will cause the danio, tetras, etc to drown (asphyxiation). The smaller fish gills can not support the slimy protective coat of a goldfish. All fish have a slimy coat for protection, but because of the diseases or parasites that are troublesome for the goldfish they require a heavier coat to survive.
If you take a clown fish (saltwater (Nemo) usually an orange fish with a stripe). They are the only fish that can survive laying in an anemone. Anemone looks like a plant. If a fish swim too close or touches them the anemone releases a poison the will kill the fish and will eat that fish. If they have long tentacles they will use them to restrain the fish until it can be eaten. However the clown will play all day in the anemone. They don't stray too far away from them. Their bodies are immune to the poison. They use the poison to coat their bodies to prevent their predators from eating them. Like the goldfish uses it slime to protect them from their environment so does the clown uses the poison to protect them from their environment.
You will save yourself a lot of money if you learn how to manage a tank. This goes for water condition to suitable tank mates. Some fish are natural predators to other fish. Some fish require a perfect environment to survive, some need acidic water conditions, some need alkaline water conditions, some need brackish water (like salt water, but not quite as much saline), and some need high levels of salt. You have fish to swim near the surface, some swim in the middle, and others remain near the bottom. All of these things should be considered when setting up a tank. If you plan right your tank will look full without overcrowding the tank. Overcrowding the tank will pollute it cause your fish to get sick and die.
Possum, something you might want to consider instead of having so many tanks. Get a very large tank. If you have a tank that is 200 gallons or it might be 250 gallons or larger you don't have to do water changer. You just need to add water as it evaporates. Larger tank like this are closer to what they is done in their natural environments. Smaller tanks require more frequent water changes to remove fish waste and uneaten food. These things don't breakdown as well in small tanks.
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Post by Possum on Oct 22, 2012 15:25:51 GMT -5
@jw, yeah, I have thought of that. Only, my 2 kids each have a fish tank in their rooms; but I can combine my 28 and 46 gallon tanks; the problem is where to put the thing. I wouldn't mind a room like in Wayne Mansion (batman...) to hold my tanks, but I doubt there's any place in my house that could withstand the weight of 250 gals or the theatrics of 7- and 10-year olds. And then I've got my wife staring me down.
(I tried to tell her I'd have more time to do her things if I could get away from doing so much fish things; but she keeps dangling garlic and butter in front of me, and asks "are we having scampi or sushi tonight?!" oy...)
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