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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2012 6:12:52 GMT -5
@chefsamurai
"before funokoshi added jujutsu & kenjutsu concepts" that's great to know. Could you explain some examples of it. I am fascinated by that.
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Chef Samurai
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Post by Chef Samurai on Jul 31, 2012 16:51:45 GMT -5
@fraiser- kokoro & jwbulldogs would be the guys to ask here my knowledge comes from them and a bit of my own research.
remember funokoshi trained with jigero kano and they even lived together as well as funokoshi did kendo as a kid add that to him not learning all of what his karate teacher kenw he had to fill in the gaps and thats where judo & kendo/kenjutsu come in.
as for examples I gave the only one I knew with one hit finish vs rapid fire to overwhelm like wing chun almost.
I also think he added "there is no 1st strike in karate" to the concepts originally fron kenjutsu but ankou itsou also did too but I think funokoshi emphasized it more while itsou was a mix of both, 1st hit finish & rapid firs follow up just in case it fails.
If I can think of anymore I'll post it but like I said there are others way more knowledgeable than I.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2012 17:22:39 GMT -5
Kokoro and JWBulldogs....thoughts?
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Post by kokoro on Jul 31, 2012 20:44:57 GMT -5
technically they are from around the same time. before funokoshi added jujutsu & kenjutsu concepts to it it was much more about rapid fire strikes to overpower your opponent like a boxers combos meanwhile shotokan is all about finishing every fight with the 1st hit. funakoshi didnt add jujutsu, the jka removed jujutsu from karate. matsumura studied jigen ryu and im sure jujutsu even though i havent seen it in writing. he also new how to use a tessu but i havent seen were he studied that either. so if any thing he would have have incorporated it in. anko azato who studied under matsumura was also an excelent swordsmen and studied jigen ryu as well. unarmed he disarmed one of the best swordsmen in okinawa at the time. the linage goes sakagwa taught matsumura. matsumura taught both itosu and azato, and funakoshi studied under both azato and itosu as well as matsumura. itosu was an excellent grappler, as well as having a powerful strike. he was attacked by 4 people at once and killed them all with one punch each. his grip was like a vise, someone once attacked him from behind he grabbed the person and held him as he continued his walk to the pub. in letters itosu wrote the mistry of education he refereed to karate as not only a grappling art but a striking art, this was around the early 1900's. going back to matusmura, he is the one that created the ikken histu (one strike to finish), which is around the early 1800's to mid 1800's. he was a well know and feared strategist. as well as one of the greatest martial artist of his time. techniques were added when funakoshi sensei, and kano sensei, used the same dojo, they traded quite a bit back and forth i think i got everything in the little rant.. lol now going back to the question, i have been think and as i said before officially many of the modern styles officially started after the late 1920's. the Butoku-kai was part of the ministry of education there the ones that would officially recognize a style. back then every thing was more organized. by the end of the 1930's they wanted all styles of karate to be registered. (then it becomes a political mess) shotokan was actually 1936 not 1939. who ever wrote that wika page is an idiot. his book statees 1936. thats when the first dojo opens with the name shotokan, how ever funakoshi sensei was promoting ranks in 1924, but he didnt call his art shotokan he wanted it to be called karate. or rather japanese karate. 1936 is also about the time he set the curriculum for shotokan as well so if you consider the name and curriculum it was 1936. if you consider when he started teaching and developing his style it was 1922. if you look at the history of judo it went through the same phase
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odee
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Post by odee on Aug 1, 2012 18:33:31 GMT -5
If Jujutsu influences entered Karate it would have been gleened off the battlefield while the Okinawans were being invaded by the Japanese. Funny, there weren't many countries in Asia that didn't hate the Japanese at that time.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2012 21:27:09 GMT -5
Not too funny for the people who had a reason to hate Japan LOL
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Chef Samurai
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Post by Chef Samurai on Aug 1, 2012 21:30:44 GMT -5
kokoro- I meant added judo to it from kano lol and I told you he would know way more than myself jw will probably have good stuff too. what is the jka exactly is it like itf & wtf for taekwondo or the ijf for judo?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2012 2:11:01 GMT -5
As far as I know, the JKA (Japan Karate Association) is an organization that teaches and promotes their style of Shotokan Karate.
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Post by jwbulldogs on Aug 2, 2012 23:09:01 GMT -5
There are modern forms of karate. Everyday not literally I hope people are reinventing the wheel and forming their own style of karate. I'm not certain why this question is being asked, but I;m assuming it is because BJJ is considered modern and karate is traditional? Tradition isn't all about the amount of years that art has been in existence (ie TKD). It has more to do with the traditional culture also being passed from one generation to the next.
I'm not authoritiry figure when it comes to Shotokan and Gichin Funakoshi. I train in Shorin Ryu which is Okanawan Karate. It is my understanding that Shorin Ryu influenced the development of Shotokan. Before Shorin Ryu was called that it was called Okinawa Te (Tode, China Hand, and Shaolin hand).
As far as throws, grappling etc it has always been part of karate. It is only removed for competition. What many fail to realize that at one time in competition there was no contact. You could only score on focused strikes. You came within inches of striking your opponent with your strikes, kicks under control.
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Post by jwbulldogs on Aug 2, 2012 23:36:35 GMT -5
There is a side kick in Okinawan karate. Look at around :29 Matsubayashi Ryu Passai youtu.be/IqgWBezNBIwThat is a side kick. It is just a low kick. It is meant to maim an attacker. Most people think of a side kick going to a scoring area. But that is just tournament karate. I can't say definitively id a round house was in Okinawan karate or not. There are still some bunkai that I don't know. In studying bunkai there are many thing in the kata that aren't obvious. Like wrist locks and a variety of throws found in judo and aikido. Take pinan shodan or naihanchi shodan. The first movents in the kata is a trap and wrist lock. In aikido they call this nikkyo (2nd wrist technique). If you look at pinan godan when you go to one knee and do an X block. That is actually a throw and the X block is a 2 hand choke. Any hip throw or shoulder throw can be used. The choke can be one of 3 chokes found in judo (nami juji jime-normal cross lock, gyaku juji jime-reverse cross lock, or kata juji jime-half cross lock). There are other choke that can be used that most aren't familiar with.
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Post by jwbulldogs on Aug 2, 2012 23:56:54 GMT -5
I'm not sure why my video didn't load.
I only had one instructor that was shotokan, but he was assisting in teaching us shorin ryu. The basics are the same. The stances are slightly different. He taught some of the beginning kata. Later as I progressed he begin to learn the other kata at the same time I was being taught. Later I began to teach him the more advanced kata. But he still had way more knowledge than I. Of course there was somethings that he taught me too that wasn't in our style of shorin ryu. I didn't need to know them when testing, but it is always good to know. He was a little crazy too. I think his tour and being part of special forces in the military affected him. But he was still a great teacher. He had a great respect and admiration for our head sensei. In the military he went in quite a few suicide missions and survived. Some of the things our government had them do is enough to make anyone crazy. He loved his knives and swords. I wonder if it had anything to do with the times when they had to sneak into the enemy camp to assassinate someone by slitting there throats while the slept.
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Post by kokoro on Aug 10, 2012 20:31:37 GMT -5
i forgot about passai, i learned 3 versions and they all had side kick. i was also talking to my friend who trains in Matsubayashi Ryu and she said the pinan kata has side kick as well.
i was reading an old book i just picked up, its now out of print. it states ruffly that funakoshi sensei while he started creating the style in or around 1922, he finalized the curriculum around 1936. he also never intend to create a new style, it turned into one.
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aaronj
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Post by aaronj on Aug 26, 2012 14:12:41 GMT -5
If you have a system that was given a name and proven to be a solid training method with a date after BJJ had the same, then your answer would be yes.
The question is a bit... self-explanatory, unless you get into the semantics of techniques. Considering many schools of 'karate' have been popping up from the mid 1900's, that would be after the designation of bjj.
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Post by jwbulldogs on Aug 26, 2012 15:26:48 GMT -5
Kokoro,
They must have modified the Pinan kata if she says there is a side kick. Other than that she must be talking about in a bunkai.
there are onl 5 Pinan. There are only a few kicks in used in the all of the Pinan kata combined. There is only one kick a snap kick and you can argue a front kick.
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odee
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Post by odee on Aug 26, 2012 16:29:04 GMT -5
This probably isn't something you'd put much stock in because it comes from a Kyokushin perspective but that kick is Kansetsugeri and while it is a side-kick the name of the thing means joint-kick so it is designed be used on both hip and knee joints. Yokogeri is the literal side kick and is targeted around the core regions; solar-plexus, kidneys, ribs, liver, spleen. I've seen the Yokogeri side-kick used by Shotokan, Goju-ryu, Jujutsu and Kenjutsu practitioners so it could be Okinawan, it could also be Japanese but that aside it's a great move to use when you're clinched up or in a weapon lock with no room to move because it has the sheer horse-power to compress a person's organs or just plain old push them and force them off, this guy didn't pull it past his belt like I would so his would be more strike than my 50/50 push-strike but that's just a personal preference.
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