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Post by jwbulldogs on Aug 27, 2012 6:22:56 GMT -5
In my opinion that is a good side kick.
When we 1st begin karate we are often taught a side kick goes to the core area. This is really more of a spots application than it is a self defense application. That is also an application that you teach to children not adults. But once you begin to learn the real application the side kick is a low kick. It is meant to go to a joint. It is meant to break. It can be thrown to the side of the joint to injure and or take them down then you finish them off r you can use it to the front for limb destruction. You can even use it at the hip joint. I appreciate all forms of martial arts. There maybe be thing done in those styles that I would never do in a self defense situation like a scorpion kick, etc. That is my personal preference. My style of karate is a hard style of Okinawan karate. Our kicks are below the waist. Sure in class we practice other kicks above the waist. If a student wants to compete they are prepared to kick to the head and chest areas because we teach this is for competition. But in self defense we would do something different. I think that would be much like what you do in your style. In competition there are no head strikes. But in self defense the head is a target. Having not attending a class in your style I can imagine that you may face many of the same challenges that we face. Most students when they start are head hunters. They attempt to make most strikes to the head. I think that may change quicker in your schools than ours because in your school they will learn the rule of no strikes to the head. Our strikes are to the head but that shouldn't be the focus only when doing self defense. It is just one of many targets...lol
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odee
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Post by odee on Aug 27, 2012 7:04:03 GMT -5
Like most Kyokushin students I prefer the Thai style low kick as my knee destroyer and ribs are easier to break than hip joints so I mostly use the Yokogeri version, just like most Kyokushin and Muay Thai students. Not to say Kansetsugeri is a bad kick, it's sneaky as hell where the roundhouse kick uses a lot of momentum, I just have more experience f***ing legs up with my shin.
That's only punches and only in knock-down rules. One of five sparring systems Kyokushin uses, just the most famous because of the whole bare-knuckle promotion. One punch to the head will earn you a foul, three will earn you a disqualification, that being said there are people who loophole that rule and use the head punch for exactly the reason it was taken out, to land a bloody cut above the eye and make their opponent fight with blood in one or both eyes. Head kicks are still perfectly legal, the reasoning being "If you cop a kick in the head you damn well deserve it" so people still head-hunt with kicks but there is also a lot of risk involved in head kicks, grabbed, countered, swept, thrown, risks that are prevalent in every single sparring ruleset we use. So unless people are confident that they're going to knock their opponent the hell out head kicks don't see much action.
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Chef Samurai
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Post by Chef Samurai on Aug 27, 2012 16:55:32 GMT -5
My kicks are mostly from savate, wing chun & muay thai but I tend to favour the savate kicks for longer range and the thai kicks for close range. This is how we break knees- www.youtube.com/watch?v=f51gmRAUXEs&t=0m9swww.youtube.com/watch?v=f51gmRAUXEs&t=0m44swww.youtube.com/watch?v=jMJed79-WoM&t=0m47sThis is my favourite side kick www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJKYIzHxs9A&t=2m56sand heres how you make sure you really mess someone up especially if you were able to land the last kick www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJKYIzHxs9A&t=3m30sIt goes great with muay thai kicks too like if you miss a 360 angle kick and your really agile you can pull off the side kick at the last second but you have to draw your knee back to do it which is the tricky part and I cant do it lol I disagree about punches to the face meant to cause cuts a real punch to the head is meant to kill lol your supposed to strike the os pars orbitalis directly in the middle and it fractures at the skull welds, a straight punch to the point of the jaw around 45 degrees to break the neck and a haymaker from the hip to the side of the jaw near the tip that's meant to break the neck and if you understand physics it's all plausible and they specifically were created using science and the masters were even called professors and sir thomas parkyns was a physics student of sir issac newton and added physics directly from him.
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odee
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Post by odee on Aug 27, 2012 19:44:50 GMT -5
Those Savate kicks are Kansetsugeri in almost all Karate syllabus Chef.
True Chef, if you can land those shots first time every time, if you can't you're better off cutting an eyebrow, wearing them down and trying for those shots later. The danger wasn't why they were banned from Kyokushin knockdown though, Japanese beliefs and matches turning into bloody spectacles had more say in the banning than the danger. After all you don't need that much precision to do more damage with the still legal kicks.
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Post by jwbulldogs on Aug 28, 2012 4:22:01 GMT -5
I may be wrong here chef. But I think he is referring to punches to the head in competition are being used to cause a cut. The cut bleed just like in boxing. You can't see with blood in your eyes. This gives you an advantage. The loop hole is that even though they know the will get a foul they can get at least one more foul without being disqualified.
That is kind of like in point sparring it used to be a punch to the face would get you a warning. 2 would get a you a deduction and 3 would get you a disqualification. But today one will get you a deduction and 2 will get you disqualified.
In judo there was a leg scissor throw used to take a person down. But there was this one guy that was 2nd Dan back in the 80's. When he was losing which was often he would do that throw but instead of doing the throw he would go for the knees instead of the waist area to take the person down. This rarely got anyone down for a clean throw, but he injured there knee joints every time. While this would be great for self defense this was poor sportsmanship. I don't recall the name of that throw, but it was later banned because there were too many injuries being caused by that throw. I recently looked that guy up. We didn't have a high opinion of him. He is still teaching and is a 6th or 7th Dan now. I recall also when we hosted a tournament I was doing all of the weigh ins. The rule was a person could only weigh in once. You could weigh in fully clothed or strip down. It's your choice, but once you had weighed in if you didn't like your placement you couldn't strip down to attempt to be placed in a lower weight class. Well he was the only person that day that asked prior to weighing if he could weigh in again if he didn't like his weight class. I told him no and pointed out the rule. He decided to weigh in with his clothes on. He was going to be in the open division and got upset. He wanted to weigh in again after stripping down. I refused. He attempted to intimidate me to no avail. Then he wanted to see who else was in his division. There was only one guy and he was from our dojo. He asked me isn't he a green belt? I said yes. He then said he wasn't worried about him and that he was a 2nd Dan and that he had beaten him before. That pissed me off. I temporarily closed down the weigh in to tell my friend what he said. We went and told our sensei. I don't think my sensei liked that comment either. He gave him one word and said Maki. This was his favorite throw. But he, me and others were banned from using it in tournaments. Our sensei said we knew we could win with that technique, but we had to be able to win with others too. Three seconds into the fight he used maki on the black belt and he didn't get up. He ended up in the hospital with a broken collarbone. He beat my friend before but he didn't know my friend had been handicapped in that match by our sensei not allowing us to do certain techniques that we favored. Sometimes he forced us to use a throw that we didn't like or that we would never used. We were excited when our instructor gave him permission to use his favorite throw, but he made it clear that he was the only one that could.
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Chef Samurai
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Post by Chef Samurai on Aug 28, 2012 6:45:06 GMT -5
@jw- I think so too but I'd rather cause a concussion than cause a cut any day and I don't play kyokushin rules so I donlt have to worry about not being able to punch away at peoples face like oyama did. I think the throw you mean is juji-basami? and I used it in sambo a lot because I never took any sambo classes I had to learn some older judo stuff from my coaches coach that I could use in sambo that worked out pretty good & it leads in to leg locks pretty good. odee- that depends on time & measure really. like if I'm just out of reach of your kick but I can move in faster to deliver rapid fire strikes before you can recover for another kick your sol and kicks are good way to get into punching range like use a knee kick to move in then punch rush. and the kicks are in all styles really just done a bit differently and savate tends to be very fluid and nothing is forced or robotic looking like karate and apparently savate is based on the same thing ballet is based on lol which makes sense because the knee & hip motions are identical from what I can tell.
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odee
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Post by odee on Aug 28, 2012 6:52:05 GMT -5
That's about the size of it JW. The risk factor involved with using such a tactic means you get two uses of it at the absolute maximum, sometimes only one and every opponent you have from that point that has witnessed such a display will want your hide. They will be willing to take a foul and take you out just to remind you of the values of sportsmanship.
So your teacher would purposely hobble you? That's a pretty damn cool teacher if he took it on himself to force you to adapt if you wanted victory. If not I really don't see rules the same way you do, I read up on the rules and think about what I can use to win rather than how not being able to use this and that will stop me winning. I whined about rules once after a Kickboxing match and was immediately roused on by my Kyokushin teacher "Couldn't use my knees, couldn't use my elbows, couldn't win. Stop bitching about what you can't use and adapt to win using what you can. Shit rarely goes as planned on the street so make sure you're the one who makes the most of any situation by adapting".
Everyone would rather cause a concussion than a cut Chef, sometimes nobody gives a damn what you would rather and you have to use alternate methods. If the option was there I think I'd rather throw sand in someone's eyes than bother trying to cut them with my fist but considering there might not be any sand I use the next best thing.
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Post by Chef Samurai on Aug 28, 2012 7:25:05 GMT -5
I guess but I would use that same knockout punch and if I don;t knockout with it I'll take a blood drip but even better would be a broken nose to cause swelling & tearing of the eyes.
Any punch can cut even quick backfists but not all can cause a concussion but the concussion punches will still cause a cut if they don't cause their desired effect.
I'd never take JUST a cut over a concussion unless I was playing around and those were the rules of said playing around.
Adapting is a strange thing and if everyone was good at adapting no one would ever have to be taught anything they could just learn from watching and getting hit which means we wouldn't need teachers we would just need to spar and constantly get better without any instruction or guidance at all lol
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Post by odee on Aug 28, 2012 17:54:15 GMT -5
Do an exercise for me Chef, roll your head one inch then two inches forwards and tell me where your target is now and what's in it's place after each increment. If your target was the nose you will be striking right between the eyes in the first increment and right on the crown of the head in the second neither place is a particularly nice one to land a fist, if your target was the eye socket the increments will be the eye brow and the crown of the head, again, rather unpleasant spots to park your fist. Next look at the targets from the side and we'll make the cut our objective, twist, turn or roll your head and not one of those shots will land direct in a bad place, they'll glance off the crown rather painfully but not hand breakingly so, the ear most likely tearing it as it goes, the bridge of the nose which will be snapped when your fist connects with it or miss completely in all directions the only direct shots you can land are right on the temple, cheek or the jaw, all of which are worse for the guy receiving them than the guy launching. Bare knuckle boxers know these things and are far more likely to swing for the side of the head than the front. personally I'd take the cut shot, odds are better for hitting something good
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Post by Chef Samurai on Aug 28, 2012 20:31:37 GMT -5
I dont know what your trying to show me? But I know in bare knuckle boxing swinging & chopping (hammerfists & backfists) are considered things done by untrained pugilists who are more street brawlers than scientific boxers who were known to beat 6 or 7 brawlers at a bar on their way to their real fight lol the single most important moves in bare-knucle boxing are the straight & left & right punches for their versatility. you can hit anywhere on the human body at a distance straight on given your in front if it which requires footwork and deception. hitting the face is so complex it's not just striking the face your striking the brains cage too so even if you don't hit a weak spot you can still cause a knockout or depending the angle the spine to break. My main face targets are middle of forehead, point of chin, eye balls, cheek bones, between eyes, nose, under the nose (top front teeth), and temples. all can be hit with a straight punch even the temples if they move wrong or you move wright. the straight forehead punch is so underrated and I almost always hurt peoples necks with it. same with the straight cheek bone punch if you hit them on the welds you can fracture the face. you have to remember too hitting the face with a vertical fist is much different than a horizontal face because you don't have to worry about your pinky & ring knuckles as much because the surface area distribution is different because the shape of the face. I wish I could show you in person I plan on opening a bare knuckle boxing school someday maybe I can when I'm traveling lol if you take in the whole body punching picture straight strikes have more available immediate targets while swinging punches have more angles available to them I guess you could say and neither is better than the other I just say depending on range they have different places.
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odee
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Post by odee on Aug 28, 2012 22:54:37 GMT -5
What I'm trying to show you is how small movements can make massive differences, like the difference between laying an unconscious target down on the ground or smearing your hand across someone's forehead. And a vertical fist doesn't change the fact that your hand is made up of many tiny breakable and dis-locatable bones, when you're launching glove-less head-shots those hands become noticeably fragile very quickly. People move and unless you're so damn good that you can predict anyone's and everyone's movements and target where things are going to be you're better off going after less risky shots. The cut shot I was referring to is a tight, hooking punch that is designed to go around your opponent's guard and glance off the outer ridge of the brow to open a cut and trickle blood into your opponent's eyes. No matter how your opponent moves you run no risk of breaking or even injuring your hand. In fact unless their move is far enough that you miss completely you have a better chance of landing a knockout shot than you would with a straight. If you miss just whip back for another shot with the back-fist, if all goes to plan just duck back and wait for a blood-blind spot to land a knockout blow in. This is the scientific method of calculated striking.
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Post by Chef Samurai on Sept 5, 2012 2:05:50 GMT -5
interesting theory but I can punch a fridge full force vertical fisted without damage to my hand but I can't even punch someones face horizontally without hurting it.
and bare knuckle boxers would punch trees sending the bark flying to practice for fights.
they were also notorious for face punching and often aimed for the forehead.
I think I showed you the pic of my old beer fridge I beat the piss out of and I didn't have to go to the hospital until I decided to hit it horizontal fist like I learned in gloved boxing and I got a boxers fracture lol
but punching the bare-knucklle boxing & jeet kune do way I had no trouble just a bit of sharp pain from several hundred pounds of force colliding into metal.
as for round punches your more likely to damage your hand by only having 1 or 2 knuckles absorb the force instead of 4 and the arm isn't behind it to absorb the pressure.
and even though they are small bones, 4 absorbing the pressure and equally distributing it will lead to less stress than just 2 of the 4 absorbing it which will lead to less likely.
and as for small movements making a huge difference just having your arm lined up with your bodys pressure can cause much more power than if it's not aligned.
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Post by odee on Sept 21, 2012 20:15:36 GMT -5
Chef I've done it, both the tree hitting and the bare-knuckle fighting. The only times I've hurt my hand have been straight punches and it's never mattered how my fist was aligned because no matter how you hold it it's still a bag of small bones and it's still going to give before the tree does, the bark you see flying is usually fairly thick stuff and has taken the impact in much the same way as a glove would. The only time your hand won't shatter is when something gives, like the hollow area behind the metal in your beer fridge, the bark on the tree, the padding in the glove, the space behind the boards or if you have about four times as much power in your punch as your target can generate through his stance and posture and you manage to shatter the posture. Such an attack would snap his neck or knock him clean off his feet, even to snap a weakling with such a method 98% of the population would have to make a massive, predictable and obvious motion to generate close to that kind of power.
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Post by jwbulldogs on Sept 22, 2012 4:29:57 GMT -5
I agree my sensei was and is a great instructor. This is why we were so successful. I understood why he forced us to use certain techniques are for some just take away the ones that we used the most. However, at the time I didn't like it, but out of respect I conformed. It didn't stop any of us from winning. We do look at rules differently. Rules have a purpose. It is supposed to create a safe environment and fair play. Rules place limitations. Having rules teaches us that our objective is to win. Not everyone follows the rules. Some bend the rules. Some use the loopholes in the rules since they aren't perfect. Rules should involve good sportsmanship. I have no problem following the rules. When I was young I loved to compete. I Looked forward to competing. I didn't try to bend the rules or look for loophole as a strategy. I would beat you displaying good sportsmanship. But as I matured my focus was no longer on winning. My focus is on I must be able to take care of my family. My only rule is to survive. I'm no longer competing. That's child's play. I've been there done that. If I hit you I mean it. I mean to make sure that you can't harm me or my family today or next week. I don't look down on those that want to compete. If I did I would be a hypocrite as I used to compete and enjoyed, I was ranked very high in the country. I expected to win. I didn't compete in my weight class, but above my weight class. I think cutting weight to compete says that you lack the skill to compete at your correct weight class. I don't like point sparring, but I can teach you strategy to be successful in point sparring. My children want to compete so I taught them how and the won. But to me that is no better than a game of tag. That is not self defense. I like what I see in Kyokushin, but it also has it's limits as does any sporting events. But at least it has real contact.
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odee
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Post by odee on Sept 22, 2012 23:44:16 GMT -5
JW I think you and I have a different view on what makes point sparring and what doesn't.
Point sparring to me is when a fight is stopped on scoring of points. #In the non-contact sense the fight gets stopped when theoretical knock-outs are performed, strikes to where most people would have weak areas (Head, solar plexus, kidneys ect) it's a theoretical knock-out because nobody has actually been struck. Everyone should have a go at this if only to see how fast some people can move and react, the big failing on this in my opinion is the lack of 'what ifs' - what if someone slips at the last second and the strike has no power, what if the other guy moves his head and you hit the crown instead of his nose, what if he's a freak and certain techniques don't work on him. Kyokushin use this as a training tool but never as a competition format.
#Partial contact I find a bit odd, it has a bit more impact and you do get to see the results of some of the attacks but realistically speaking the referee has too much control and I'd rate it at second from the bottom, Olympic Taekwando is a good example of how bad it can be.
#Full contact point sparring. I'd actually put Kyokushin knockdown right here. The match is stopped on the scoring of major points, injuries and disqualification. To get a stoppage you knock your opponent off their feet, knock your opponent out, injure them or collect enough fouls to earn a disqualification. The limitation is that you don't follow your opponent to the ground and finish the job in an attacking sense this is fine, once you knock the bastard out or down you scram but if you're knocked down and have only practiced for knockdown competitions you'll find a problem defending yourself on the ground.
Continuous is where there is no stoppage until time runs out or one fighter can no longer continue.
#Non-contact continuous is nothing but minor points and neither fighter really knows who won until the result is announced, you either feel confident that you've won big or know you've lost big but between that it's anyones guess.
#Partial contact continuous is the absolute worst kind of competition in my opinion because people lose the sense of what's dangerous and what isn't, better to be told that something is too dangerous to use than to feel half the effect and believe it's fine to wear. Joint attacks are a good example of this, a half hearted kick in the knee will do nothing, an intended one will ruin it for ever. In my opinion partial contact continuous is only good for new students practicing throwing moves in their own school, copping a cuff upside the head as you try to throw is a good way for a newbie to learn that they've left themselves open. Higher graded students should be reminded with something a bit more substantial.
#Limited contact continuous. I'd throw most Judo competitions here because when striking is allowed it's full force just limited in what techniques can be used. The match ends when time runs out or when someone is pinned, choked or taps out.
#Full contact continuous. To me only Vale Tudo and MMA type rule-sets like the UFC, PRIDE or Pancration really come close to this, the only things that stop or end these matches are to win, lose, get disqualified or run out of time. Unlike Kyokushin knockdown the fight continues on the ground, chasing your opponent to the ground isn't too bright if you've just knocked them there but if you've been put down and someone keeps after you this is how you're going to defend yourself.
Boxing and Kickboxing fall halfway between full contact point sparring and full contact continuous, they're not stopped as obviously as Kyokushin but they aren't allowed to continue on the ground like Vale-tudo or Pancration rules.
Then there's the further matter of minor and major points. Kyokushin for example has three levels of stack- Combat points at the bottom of the stack, if no major points of any kind have been scored the corner judges who have been watching the action will add up minor points that they've awarded and hold up a coloured flag to show who they believed to be the better fighter. In the middle of the stack are the knockdown points, knocking your opponent down three times will earn you three points and a victory, each knockdown is worth a massive swathe of combat points, more than a person can accumulate in a single match, so if you knock someone down and they don't knock you down you will win, if both contestants have scored one or two points apiece combat points will again decide the victor. The top stack is the knockout and major knockdown, if you legally floor your opponent for over eight seconds or knock them out it doesn't matter if they've dominated you for two minutes and fifty-five seconds of a three minute match and scored two knockdowns, if you get the major knockdown or a knock-out you win - Period.
The same with MMA, Kickboxing, Boxing and Vale Tudo I can dominate you on every level for every round up to the final one but if you get a top stack score like a knockout, tap-out or choke-out in the dying seconds of the final round that domination in lower stack points counts for squatt.
Things like that mean a fight isn't over until it's over. I can make an opponent look like he's been run over several times by a truck and not wear a bruise but if he is conscious at the end and I'm not I'll still be declared the loser.
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