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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2012 20:50:10 GMT -5
Is it true that BJJ is older than most modern schools of Karate like Shotokan, Shito-ryu etc?
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Post by kokoro on Jul 29, 2012 21:14:37 GMT -5
karate it self goes back about 300 yrs before that it was tode-jutsu
up until about a 100 yrs ago there was only 3 styles of karate. also the definition of styles was different its a bit confusing, but there was naha-te, Shuri-te, tomari-te. this was more of a regain then the styles thought, since they considers styles the kata, like passai ryu, kusanku ryu, naihanchi ryu, etc. but if you talked to a fellow martial arts back then he would say he studied naha-te, Shuri-te, tomari-te.
the styles like goju ryu, shotokan, isshin ryu and the others didnt start being named until after funakoshi, sensei came to japan which was around 1922, then it took another decade for those styles to be named so. funakoshi sensei, idea wasn't to create a new style he just intended it to be called karate.
this is the short version it gets more complex, but in general yes bjj is older
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Post by kokoro on Jul 29, 2012 21:33:34 GMT -5
the first dan rank in karate was award around 1924, by funakoshi sensei to one of his students. at this time he only referred to his style as karate.
the exact years are controversial as to when the style started and when it was recognized. butoku kai which was the govening body for martial arts at the time didn't like okinawan's and it was more of a political issue then any thing. so they may have well started there styles earler in the mid to late 1920's or early 1930's but it wasnt recognized until years later.
the ruff history goes for the four major styles as
Goju-ryu developed out of Naha-te, its popularity primarily due to the success of Kanryo Higaonna (1853-1915). Higaonna opened a dojo in Naha using eight forms brought from China. His best student, Chojun Miyagi (1888-1953) later founded Goju-ryu, 'hard soft way' in 1930. In Goju-ryu much emphasis is placed on combining soft circular blocking techniques with quick strong counter attacks delivered in rapid succession.
Shito-ryu was founded by Kenwa Mabuni (1889-1952) in 1928 and was influenced directly by both Naha-te and Shuri-te. The name Shito is constructively derived from the combination of the Japanese characters of Mabuni's teachers' names - Ankoh Itosu and Kanryo Higaonna. Shito-ryu schools use a large number of kata, about fifty, and is characterized by an emphasis on power in the execution of techniques.
Shotokan was founded by Gichin Funakoshi (1868-1957) in Tokyo in 1938. Funakoshi is considered to be the founder of modern karate. Born in Okinawa, he began to study karate with Yasutsune Azato, one of Okinawa's greatest experts in the art. In 1921 Funakoshi first introduced Karate to Tokyo. In 1936, at nearly 70 years of age, he opened his own training hall. The dojo was called Shotokan after the pen name used by Funakoshi to sign poems written in his youth. Shotokan Karate is characterized by powerful linear techniques and deep strong stances.
Wado-ryu, 'way of harmony', founded in 1939 is a system of karate developed from jujitsu and karate by Hienori Otsuka as taught by one of his instructors, Gichin Funakoshi. This style of karate combines basic movements of jujitsu with techniques of evasion, putting a strong emphasis on softness and the way of harmony or spiritual discipline.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2012 22:47:31 GMT -5
BJJ started developing around the 1916-1920 time period, yes?
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odee
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Post by odee on Jul 30, 2012 0:06:21 GMT -5
Started developing is what makes it a tricky question. Like Kokoro said Karate was developing during the feudal era. When the names Gracie Jujitsu and Karate were given might give you a proper answer but even then Karate was Karate before Funakoshi but it meant Chinese Hands rather than Empty Hands as it does today, a pun on Funakoshi's part because they shared a common character or pronunciation, I don't recall which. Personally I don't think that which came first really matters but then again my experience with Karate came through Kyokushin so my style is waaaaaay out of the running.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2012 17:30:52 GMT -5
Did it start developing or was it already all there? Was it just there teaching style or opening a school that developed? I mean if BJJ as some derogatory say is Basically Just Judo than the techniques were already there. But I can see how Karate can say the same too.
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Post by kokoro on Jul 30, 2012 18:08:56 GMT -5
the techniques were always there. they may have been modified or a few added technique, but even then the core of the style was there but styles still evolve even today. karate was primary a grappling art up until the 1950's 60's when the jka decided to rearrange it at least in japan. just looking at the kicks for example. karate didnt have a side kick or round house kick until the 1900's. every technique is in kata and in the okinawan kata they dont have either kick. so it was add from other styles later on the round rouse possibly came from muay thai. the side kick i'm not sure.
karate history is at best a messy. it comes down to how you define what a style is and for karate it has changed over the year. you have kata that was consider a ryu at one point. then you had family styles kept secret for generations,
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odee
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Post by odee on Jul 30, 2012 18:57:40 GMT -5
Well since the original question is Modern Karate which would mean JKA influenced methods I'd say the answer is yes. BJJ is definitely older than Modern Karate in both Judo and BJJ forms.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2012 20:52:01 GMT -5
Yes, the question was about modern Karate and not the Okinawan styles of naha-te, shuri-te and tomari-te. Thanks
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Post by kokoro on Jul 30, 2012 21:45:41 GMT -5
i may have gotten a bit too much into the history and gone off track there.
most modern styles weren't created until the late 1920 and after
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Post by rollingrock128 on Jul 30, 2012 22:11:33 GMT -5
no it is not like i did my research but karate dates back hundreds of years and bjj only dates back till 1914 i believe. what you might have heard is that principles and techniques from judo that date back before some forms of karate are used in bjj. because a judo guy came up with bjj. im not good with the history and all that i think i am right though. feel free to correct me
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2012 23:23:56 GMT -5
the techniques in modern karate go back hundreds of years via traditional karate to the Te (or Tode) of the Okinawans.
Also the techniques in BJJ go back hundreds of years via Judo to the Jujutsu of the Samurai.
Similiar.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2012 23:28:36 GMT -5
I was asking if BJJ was older than modern Karate. Since BJJ started in 1920 with Carlos Gracie teaching and most schools of modern Karate started in the late 20's, we can say that BJJ is older.
And Karate and Jujutsu are just as old but developed in Okinawa and Japan respectably.
Modern Karate (e.g Shotokan) - Traditional Karate (Shuri-te) - Okinawan Te
BJJ - Judo - Jujutsu
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2012 23:29:00 GMT -5
Older as an established school and not techniques:)
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Chef Samurai
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Post by Chef Samurai on Jul 31, 2012 0:19:27 GMT -5
technically they are from around the same time.
the 1st gracie acedmy opened in 1925 which is the same year judo baned most ne-waza (ground fighting).
the 1st shotokan dojo was opened in 1939.
here's where it gets complex because some say shotokan was the 1st style of japanese karate and japanese karate is different than okinawan kararte.
before funokoshi added jujutsu & kenjutsu concepts to it it was much more about rapid fire strikes to overpower your opponent like a boxers combos meanwhile shotokan is all about finishing every fight with the 1st hit.
also on an interesting note okinawan karate has no roundhouse kick or side kick only japanese karate has them.
as for techniques they all go way back and I have yet to see a submission in bjj that isn't also in judo & sambo.
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