|
Post by Glutton4Punishment on Nov 22, 2012 15:52:25 GMT -5
TMA guys get their asses whooped whenever they try to hang in competition and the excuses are always the same:
- The gloves make it impossible to eye gouge!
- We train to kill and the fighter's kill techniques are against the rules!
- That wasn't real *insert stupid martial art that doesn't work here*!
What the hell, guys? Is fighting not about more than eye gouges or nad kicks? If somebody can't handle fighting without dirty tricks, then how can they even be considered good and versatile fighters? And in what way are "killing techniques" not allowed? I don't think I've ever read a rule about not being allowed to rip somebody's heard out through the ribcage. As long as you aren't being cheap, use what you know! And as for the "That isn't the real ____" comments, where IS the REAL whatever actually working in competition?
Let's see the Wing Chun, Ninjutsu, Aikido, Systema, and other nonsensical garbage actually working please! I'd love to see some footage.
|
|
Chef Samurai
Global Moderator
Canadian Catch Wrestling
Posts: 843
|
Post by Chef Samurai on Nov 22, 2012 17:19:03 GMT -5
everyone has an excuse even sports people it's up to the person I hate when people blame styles...
|
|
|
Post by Glutton4Punishment on Nov 22, 2012 19:11:17 GMT -5
This whole "it's the fighter, not the style" thing is a nice sentiment and all, but is it really the truth or is it just a bunch of crap we spout to make practitioners of less effective styles feel better about what they're doing? Because the last time I checked, styles like Boxing and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu had countless examples of video footage PROVING their effectiveness both in the ring AND on the ever-so-deadly street. We're talking REAL fight footage here, not demos. Bujinkan Ninjutsu has how many, again? That's right - NONE!
Now, let's ask ourselves... If it all boils down to the fighter and the style isn't a factor, then WHY?
The answer: Because the style IS a factor! Some styles ARE better than others for fighting! As I've said before, if you learn ballet and then improvise a couple of punches into your prissy dancing you can't expect it to work when you jump in the ring with a boxer. Some fighting methods work, others don't. The fighter is only ONE variable, not the entire equation.
|
|
Chef Samurai
Global Moderator
Canadian Catch Wrestling
Posts: 843
|
Post by Chef Samurai on Nov 22, 2012 19:51:14 GMT -5
a style is as only good as the people who do it... period.
there are millions of crappy boxers, brazilian jiujitero, wrestlers, kickboxers, nak muay, judoka & every other style on earth.
the thing is when a style gets popular it's bound to attract more people to it thus creating a larger pool of talent and more "greats".
There are more chumps in the "best styles" as well because out of millions & millions of practitioners only hundreds are "greats"
it comes down to a numbers game really.
|
|
Chef Samurai
Global Moderator
Canadian Catch Wrestling
Posts: 843
|
Post by Chef Samurai on Nov 22, 2012 20:03:29 GMT -5
I forgot to add that lineages can suck because of bad training methods but lineage isn't a denotation of style just what version of said style does whatever they do that makes them them.
|
|
odee
Global Moderator
Kyokushin 10 years - Brazilian Jujitsu 3 years - Muay Thai 2 years.
Posts: 1,286
|
Post by odee on Nov 23, 2012 18:12:55 GMT -5
I disagree with Chef on the head-count. I also disagree with Glutton on the style but not quite in the same way. I believe the biggest factor is hours spent sparring. I actually rate style waaaaaaaaaaaaaay down on the importance list. The only time I take a swing at styles is when those styles are well known for their lack of sparring. Like Glutton's Bujinkan example as well as a lot of Aikido schools the technique begins to lose touch with the realities of fighting. On the Dancer vs the Boxer I agree that the Dancer isn't going to stand a huge chance against the Boxer in a Boxing match, neither would someone who only trains Jiu jitsu, Judo, Muay Thai, Karate or Kickboxing, none of them are as specialised as the Boxer at Boxing, when it comes to using just the fists the Boxer is the master. But. Put the Boxer in a Kickboxing match and any of the last three would have a fair chance of beating him, potentially destroying him with the addition of kicks. Log some sparring time onto the dancer and you will have a very quick conversion from dancer to fighter.
A Karateka who doesn't spar is a dancer. A Muay Thai student who doesn't spar is a dancer. A Kickboxer who doesn't spar is a dancer. A Boxer who doesn't spar is a weird, kind of inflexible dancer.
Both my Muay Thai and Kyokushin teachers have had dancers and gymnasts join their schools and both have made comment on the speed of their progression. Fluent dance stylists like ballet and break often have an understanding and mastery of their body that is equalled by martial artists and surpassed only by gymnasts. They're fast, strong, flexible and used to pushing through pain, things that martial artists and combat stylists alike spend a huge lump of their time trying to improve on.
Here's an equasion for the time I spent sparring at Kyokushin.
.5 of an hour times five days a week equals 2.5 hours per week 2.5 hours per week times 52 weeks equals 130 hours in a year. 130 hours in a year times ten years is 1300 hours. 1300 hours divided by twenty-four hours in a day is 54 days meaning over ten years I spent roughly 54 days actually sparring.
Spend an hour teaching a gymnast or a dancer to punch and kick and block and then lump-hour him with a good number of sparring partners and unless someone broke him he'd catch those hours and experience pretty damn quick. I have a friend in the military who knocks my ten years of Karate sparring experience over. EVERY. SINGLE. YEAR.
If TMA artists were training in a properly traditional or professional time frame of eight hours a day rather than two hours a day they'd probably do some winning.
|
|
odee
Global Moderator
Kyokushin 10 years - Brazilian Jujitsu 3 years - Muay Thai 2 years.
Posts: 1,286
|
Post by odee on Nov 24, 2012 17:27:52 GMT -5
Oh, on the head-count. A hack is a hack no matter what they claim to practice, style is not going to make an iota of difference to that person unless the school in question is allowed to force a change in their mentality. I'd say if it wasn't for my Rugby coach and his methods even my Kyokushin teachers would have struggled to teach me to fight without me hacking out and quitting but because I'd been broken of the wuss side he was able to prod my pride to get me back on my feet in training. There's also the question of fan-boys. People who are part of the style but never actually put any effort into improvement let alone compete. They rest on OTHER people's laurels. Both traditional and modern styles have these chumps, the big difference between schools is how these people are treated. In a school that prides itself on producing fighters these students are never popular and sometimes barely tolerated. In a school that preaches avoidance those same students can thrive and be recognised bringing the style's reputation down.
|
|
Chef Samurai
Global Moderator
Canadian Catch Wrestling
Posts: 843
|
Post by Chef Samurai on Nov 24, 2012 19:02:30 GMT -5
your right a hack is a hack no matter what it's undeniable but I noticed a lot of people don't know where to compete if their style has no competitions like me I compete in all the combat sports because jkd has no sport & whats better than competing everything from a jkd perspective lol
|
|
odee
Global Moderator
Kyokushin 10 years - Brazilian Jujitsu 3 years - Muay Thai 2 years.
Posts: 1,286
|
Post by odee on Nov 25, 2012 5:00:10 GMT -5
Does JKD actually encourage competition? I know they're supposed to encourage cross-training but I thought Bruce Lee was loudly against competitions.
|
|
Chef Samurai
Global Moderator
Canadian Catch Wrestling
Posts: 843
|
Post by Chef Samurai on Nov 25, 2012 13:15:31 GMT -5
Yeah he said he didn't believe in competition but he boxed when he was young so he was a hypocrite.
He changed his mind a ot on a lot of things and that's why there are alt east 5 styles of jkd straight from bruce himself that differ a lot from one another in some areas lol
I'm a big fan of changing the rules every round to make both people work on different things so they can't to spam the same crap over again and actually get good at their weaknesses.
Here's some examples
Grappling Session- R1 folkstyle wrestling rules (no slams but subs can be used to a certain degree for control) R2 judo rules (throws & armbars but no transitions or sweeps because of 25 second rule) R3 freestyle wrestling rules (slams and control but armbars are limited to controlling devices) R4 bjj rules (all subs but limited slams) R5 greco-roman wrestling rules R6 sambo rules (no chokes but leg locks galore & pins count)
Striking Session- R1 boxing rules (punches only, even clinching gets you kicked after 3 times!) R2 taekwondo rules (only kicking) R3 kickboxing rules (mixes kicks & punches) R4 muay thai rules (adds elbows, knees, clinch & throws) R5 sanshou rules (takes away the elbows & knees to focus on the clinch & throws) R6 Savate Rules (takes away throws & clinch to focus on the basics again but slighlty differently)
MMA Session- R1 any style of wrestling rules R2 boxing rules R3 judo, sambo or bjj rules R4 kickboxing or savate rules R5 submission grappling or catch wrestling R6 muay thai or sanshou rules R7 mma or shooto rules
Sometimes I even do old pradal serey, broughtons rules bare knuckle boxing, ancient greek pygmachia (fist fighting) and pale (grappling) and whatever else I feel like doing when I'm training and who's willing to do what but we always remember it's training so we don't really hurt each other even if the rules are minimal we "count coupe" where if my finger touches your eye it count's as a gouge and we reset and the victim has to wear an eye patch to simulate blindness and go back to the same position.
I think sparring is good if you do it right and use it to work on your weaknesses.
|
|
odee
Global Moderator
Kyokushin 10 years - Brazilian Jujitsu 3 years - Muay Thai 2 years.
Posts: 1,286
|
Post by odee on Nov 25, 2012 15:26:22 GMT -5
I think if you're willing to admit you were wrong about things it isn't exactly hypocracy, it's just being wrong and changing tune. That sounds like a damn interesting training method, I've never made huge changes like that mid match...well, maybe never is too strong a word because I have changed my gameplan radically but changing rulesets is something else entirely. That would make an awesome tournament style, like a pentathlon. First tier - Kickboxing Second tier - Judo Third tier - Catch Wrestling Fourth tier - Knockdown Fifth tier (Finals) - MMA So coooool!!! It would force students to become more rounded rather than developing one skill-set.
|
|
Chef Samurai
Global Moderator
Canadian Catch Wrestling
Posts: 843
|
Post by Chef Samurai on Nov 25, 2012 18:02:43 GMT -5
I think if you're willing to admit you were wrong about things it isn't exactly hypocrisy, it's just being wrong and changing tune. Your right he was still only 30 years old and still in the process of refining things which is only 5 year older than me and I'm nowhere near to create my own style lol. That sounds like a damn interesting training method, I've never made huge changes like that mid match...well, maybe never is too strong a word because I have changed my gameplan radically but changing rulesets is something else entirely. That would make an awesome tournament style, like a pentathlon. First tier - Kickboxing Second tier - Judo Third tier - Catch Wrestling Fourth tier - Knockdown Fifth tier (Finals) - MMA So coooool!!! Yeah it would be cool and I've thought about it before it would be epic and would showcase each fighters talents in their respective fields. It would force students to become more rounded rather than developing one skill-set. Exactly why I do it!!!! and I recommend it to anyone who likes a challenge.
|
|
odee
Global Moderator
Kyokushin 10 years - Brazilian Jujitsu 3 years - Muay Thai 2 years.
Posts: 1,286
|
Post by odee on Nov 25, 2012 18:52:13 GMT -5
Mmmm...maybe. It's possible you already have your own style, you just don't teach it.
On the downside of my idea. I think such a tournament could only be hosted once per year otherwise competitors might become scarce (Broken) still, I'd love to see such a competition open to all comers.
|
|
Chef Samurai
Global Moderator
Canadian Catch Wrestling
Posts: 843
|
Post by Chef Samurai on Nov 25, 2012 19:49:55 GMT -5
It's possible, people say I'm awkward people when I fight but I never knew what they meant because they still said I was good & I thought it meant bad.
And I'd love to see it too but I think your right, people would be broken up real bad!!!
I also like the idea of mixing it up randomly so people have no idea whats up like this.
R1 Random Hybrid Art rules R2 Random Grappling Art rules R3 Random Striking Art rules R4 Random Hybrid Art rules R5 Random Striking Art rules R6 Random Grappling Art rules R7 Random Hybrid Art rules
Now how do you prepare for that except by becoming VERY well rounded???
|
|
odee
Global Moderator
Kyokushin 10 years - Brazilian Jujitsu 3 years - Muay Thai 2 years.
Posts: 1,286
|
Post by odee on Nov 26, 2012 6:00:11 GMT -5
The random rules is an interesting concept. You'd need some in the know judges for thaqt effort...my rule bending might also be null and void.
|
|