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Post by cheetah on Jul 24, 2012 15:01:54 GMT -5
@rr - Do you want to debate your "thumbs down" or not? This is the "war room", right? So post a rebuttal.
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Post by rollingrock128 on Jul 28, 2012 20:00:22 GMT -5
@rr - Do you want to debate your "thumbs down" or not? This is the "war room", right? So post a rebuttal. alright your comment was stupid. you say there is no such thing as respect. then you contradict yourself in the next sentance saying. you either respect all or you don't at all. and as i said a any martial art will work on the average joe and they are all useful somewhere. and then you say there is no stand up MA. what do you call boxing? what do you call muay thai? and yeah ik i said a standup traditional martial art honestly I'm a little ignorant there because I only took tkd and i did learn a little grappling. and it was awful
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odee
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Post by odee on Jul 28, 2012 20:27:34 GMT -5
Respect has to be earned so it's entirely possible to respect some and not others. Personally I'm a bit of an optimist. I respect until proved that respect is not deserved. No style has managed to do this yet but many organizations, schools and practitioners have been put on the shit list.
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Chef Samurai
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Post by Chef Samurai on Aug 3, 2012 13:13:07 GMT -5
I was just like you on that odee untill I found out there is always 1% that stick out way above the rest but they are often different and not recognized because of so.
And sometimes is the one who has a different answer than everyone else is right.
taekwondo, karate, judo, wing chun and aikido were all on my shit list until I found competent people who blew me away with their skill and ability.
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odee
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Post by odee on Aug 3, 2012 19:09:09 GMT -5
How do you come to the conclusion you were just like me? You hated until proved wrong, I respected until proved wrong. That's kind of opposites meeting in the middle sunshine.
Being a practitioner of Karate kind of opened my eyes to the fact that it's not what you do but how you learn to do it. Going to an open styles tournament where everyone does the same thing and dominating because nobody else has learned to do it well really makes you question the importance of technique.
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rikashiku
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Post by rikashiku on Aug 3, 2012 23:35:28 GMT -5
I've been doing MMA for nearly 5 years and I've come to the conclusion that half of what they teach you won't work in a real fight, but just for the ring. Techniques made for the ring will work in the ring, not so much in a real fight. Half of of what you learn in Self Defense martial arts won't be used most of the time.
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Chef Samurai
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Post by Chef Samurai on Aug 4, 2012 10:41:12 GMT -5
rikashiku- yeah I noticed a lot of the same stuff too like I wouldn't mount in a self defence situation because my old sifu showed me a ball squeeze that will maim me for life and I would rather get punched out than have my balls popped lol remember self defence isn't winning it's getting away with as little damage to you as possible and knocking someone out after you lose your balls is a victory win combat sports but an epic fail in self defence.
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odee
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Post by odee on Aug 4, 2012 18:17:10 GMT -5
If somebody got my balls I doubt self defense would even be considered. Even if I wasn't into combat arts if someone neutered me my motive would be assault.
Rik you can only make that judgement because you've tried it. People who only do self defense can rarely make judgements like that because very few of them have ever used their techniques with any kind of intent. At least ring fighters have gone after others with the intent of knocking them out.
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Chef Samurai
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Post by Chef Samurai on Aug 4, 2012 20:33:28 GMT -5
odee- the whole self defence mindset is avoid being in position for your balls to be crushed to begin with and if they do get in that position it's all bets out the window lol so you weren't successful to defend your body from maiming.
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rikashiku
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Post by rikashiku on Aug 4, 2012 20:49:04 GMT -5
"Rik you can only make that judgement because you've tried it. People who only do self defense can rarely make judgements like that because very few of them have ever used their techniques with any kind of intent. At least ring fighters have gone after others with the intent of knocking them out."
Like I said, half the techniques taught in Self Defense will only be used. Half of what you learn in sport is completely useless. the reason we learn martial arts is so we have the option to survive the fight, and not be taken down and killed.
Professional fighters are paid to fight. Martial Artist only fight when it is needed. In the ring, you have rules, regulations, things that don't account for in the real world. Fighting more is one thing, fighting once in a real fight is another.
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odee
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Post by odee on Aug 4, 2012 21:02:40 GMT -5
It's only useless if the other guy knows how to counter it. Just llike the reason half the stuff from most martial arts doesn't work in competition is because it requires too much of a skill difference to be plausible against another fighter. Rules and regulations count as the situation in the real world, you adapt to them or you suffer. In Kyokushin competition I can't punch you in the head - Real world equivalent you've just gotten off a motorbike or sportsfield and you're wearing a helmet. In Boxing I can't kick you - Real world equivalent my jeans are going to rip open in front of everyone if I lift my leg too high or stop me doing it all together. Judo I can't hit you - Real world application you're too damn close to hit anyway. In MMA I can't bite you open or kill you - Real world application you'll go to jail if you do that. Rules are the situation and in the ring just like on the street you make the most of the situation that you have to deal with or you come off second best.
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rikashiku
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Post by rikashiku on Aug 4, 2012 23:46:53 GMT -5
Half the stuff you learn in martial arts aren't that difficult to use, even against another fighter. The reason half of them aren't used is because there are better options that are used in more common situations. Not everyone will be held up by a gun, but mostly by a knife or multiple attackers. Half the stuff in sport will never work because they are only used specifically for the ring.
In Kyokushin, you don't wear shoes and you have to wear your dogi. You can't wear a dogi all the time.
In Boxing, you wear gloves. A padded strike is much different to a bare strike. You also build a habit of blocking and fighting not with strikes, but with fitness.
In Judo, its the same as Kyokushin. You wear a Dogi, no shoes, no kicking and now no striking of any kind.
In MMA, you can't kick the kidneys, a vital point for self defense. You need to wear shorts of some kind, in the real world you wear normal clothes that may obstruct your abilities. You are trained to jab before hitting hard. In the real world, you don't have 5 minutes to play with. A fight can end in 10 seconds, instead of 15 minutes.
It isn't difficult to convert from Ring training to realistic self defense, but it won't happen in the first attack.
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odee
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Post by odee on Aug 5, 2012 5:55:25 GMT -5
Only reason I'd take my shoes off in a fight is if I DON'T want to hurt the other guy. Kind of defeats the purpose if you ask me. If I have no plans for hurting them I'm clearly in no danger. Fitness is normally what wins fights anyway. The guy who hits faster hits first, people with fitness usually hit faster and everyone hits faster without boxing gloves. Dogi aren't that different to what I wear normally, the only real difference between a gi and normal clothes is the number of throws they'll stand up to. Again, taking the shoes off only matters if you're NOT planning on hurting the other guy, if that's the case martial training is irrelevant. You don't have to wear shorts of some kind, you can wear pants and a shirt if you want. People wear trunks because they offer nothing to grab. I wasn't trained to jab before hitting hard and my first technique is usually a front thrust kick to end fights quickly and I'll tell you straight up, going straight on the offensive isn't for everyone because you run risk with unknowns. Do you have no idea what a jab even does? People use jabs to test the other fighter and see what their reflexes are like. They're usually poised and ready to get the hell out of the way of someone who reacts quickly, the jab offers no weight which is why fancy throws don't work in MMA, jabs offer only speed and pain. A fight ends when someone ends it and unless the aggressor is better than the ring fighter the ring fighter will be the one who ends it because that is what they do. If the other guy is better you're up shit creek no matter what you train in.
It's not guaranteed but it does happen and has happened on many occassions plus there are far less occassions of ring fighters not managing to fight back than there are of so called self defense practitioners and proponents.
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Post by cheetah on Aug 6, 2012 16:15:32 GMT -5
@rr - you missed my entire point. I said there is no such thing as "respect, but." When you throw the word but in there, you completely contradict the statement made before it.
If I say, "I really like this person, but he annoys me because he talks about himself too much." I don't really like the person. Make sense? A better application would be "if this person didn't talk about himself so much, he wouldn't annoy me and I might end up liking him.
Oh understand, I do believe in respect, whole heartedly. Like I stated, you either respect something or you do not, there's no middle ground in truth. Words and actions can be completely different here.
You said stand up TMAs. My point is that even though the ignorant masses believe that Karate and TKD are stand up only, they are not. Are they as focused on grappling as BJJ and Judo, no, but there are MANY grappling techniques taught in those styles. The main difference from my point of view is that TKD will teach you how to grapple when you are there, but the main point will be to eventually get back on your feet, where BJJ wants to stay on the ground.
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Post by rollingrock128 on Aug 6, 2012 17:16:10 GMT -5
ah i see. my mistake. but i still disagree. its more like saying "i like that person. but that person over there is better so i like him more"
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