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Post by cheetah on Aug 7, 2012 15:57:45 GMT -5
I have no issue whatsoever with someone stating their opinion on what they like more. I've been practicing TKD at good schools for over 7 years. I also play around with some Judo and BJJ. I, personally like Judo and BJJ, but I like TKD more. When I've gotton myself into tough situations in the past, I personally want to stay on my feet. If I end up on the ground, I want to know enough to survive there and get back up. But that's just my preference, not saying it's right or wrong.
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rikashiku
Yellow Belt
I'm watching.
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Post by rikashiku on Aug 7, 2012 16:36:49 GMT -5
So if you are attacked Odee, you would go easy on them? No offense, but that is a very amateur move to make. Another amateur move is to rush the opponent, which is a common thing to see in the Ring. Fighters get an edge when they charge first, but they also exhaust themselves sooner. Rope a dope if you will. Even if they are of little danger, I won't hold back. I will end the fight as quickly as possible to avoid hurting them more than I should. I agree with that statement, "Hit first, hit last". Its been my motto for years.
A dogi has more leg space, it has no buttons or zip up, it is worn like a coat. Some Dogi are quite heavy, others are lighter for competition. Dogi are different to what some people can wear. People who wear gear fitted loike a Dogi are smart. This is why I like to create as many options as I can in my training and fights. If I wear jeans, then low kicks and throws. If I wear shorts, mid kicks and hand strikes. etc etc.
Like I said, the goal of a ring fight is to fight. The goal of self defense, of survival is to end the fight as quickly as possible without being hurt or worse. I won't jab an attacker, but I will jab with another fighter. Don't assume Odee.
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odee
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Kyokushin 10 years - Brazilian Jujitsu 3 years - Muay Thai 2 years.
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Post by odee on Aug 8, 2012 16:41:30 GMT -5
If I got attacked I'd do what's worked for me to date in street fights and what works in the ring, just like being cornered in the ring you force your way out of the attack and assess the situation then act under judgement or let your reflexes do their job. Nobody said anything about going easy, what I said was I wouldn't take my shoes off unless I had no plans on hurting my opponent and if that's the case I'm clearly not in a fight or even in danger. There's a reason most gyms don't allow people to wear shoes when they kick the bag and that reason becomes clear when you kick someone with shoes, that hard edge on the blade of your cross-trainers or good-wear will carve your opponent's face up like a blunt knife, badly and messily, why would I take that off in a fight? I wouldn't, I haven't and I don't. Why take that off in the gym or in a ring? I like my training mates and have no desire to cut their faces. Every martial artist ring or reality based knows what they can and can't do in tight clothing, that much is common knowledge, it takes no street seminar to figure out.
The goal in a ring is to win, just like there are street situations where attempting to end a fight is suicidal and backing down is the best option there are situations in the ring where taking points and beating a strategic withdrawal is the better option than closing with someone who will brutalise you in stand-up or beat your ass in grappling. The multiple person situations that non-competitive stylists harp on about rely mostly on your fitness and your willingness to fight smart, after all, that's what's going to keep you in the optimal position to face your aggressors on your own terms rather than theirs. Jabs work fine on an attacker, if you've never put someone down with a jab then either your jabs suck or you've been getting opponents with iron jaws. I'll do whatever is avaliable to me on the street or in the ring if that means jabbing at them with intent of a cheap knockout, opening cuts, hitting the throat or just to intimidate them while I move to a better position that's what I'll do. That's ring-craft that has translated damn near perfectly to street-craft. I assume a lot and I judge constantly but I also retract my judgements and assumptions if they're proved false or wrong. And to date that judgement sits like this "No martial art can perfectly prepare you for the street but full-contact ring styles have the best record to date because they develop a mind and body that strikes back when attacked".
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odee
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Post by odee on Aug 19, 2012 20:38:43 GMT -5
Hanshi Sun Tzu was very wise when he said the best victories are the ones taken without a war but as a martial artist you're learning fighting techniques. Your concern is what happens during and after the fight, in short the outcome of the war you CAN'T avoid. Walking away is all good and well but sometimes it isn't an option and that is the last resort that we as martial artists train for. The times when fighting is not only the best option it's the ONLY option. If somebody threatens people you care about and you choose to walk away you aren't chosing to be wise you're chosing to be a bitch. You're leaving others high and dry in a cowardly act. Personally I couldn't live with myself for doing something like that to my friends or family, could you? Good point Mofo, you probably are good enough to avoid any rolling around, I believe you. I'm not that good, chances are I'll trade about the same amount of bodily fluids with a guy on the ground as I would cutting my fist open on his teeth then punching him in the face a few more times for good measure, maybe more because in spite of my two years of BJJ training my grappling skills aren't that far above most rugby players. That and I'm just naturally sweaty and live in a hot country to boot. I'm not saying going to the ground is a bad idea, I'm just pointing out that bodily fluid is not the best argument to prove that it is a good idea.
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Post by jwbulldogs on Aug 22, 2012 3:17:31 GMT -5
I haven't been here much lately. But I ran across this thread. I haven't read all of the post. I'm a little surprised by some comments. I'm not sue what led to the comments. If I go back to page one I'll probably have a better understanding. Shoes on or off? If it is self defense shoes stay on. It will cause more damage. Shoes are only off in the dojo. Who wear tight pants? I can kick where I please in any clothing that I wear. If I ruin a pair a pants which I doubt, so what. My objective is to survive. I can get new clothing. It is not often that I jab will knock anyone out. If it does they really have a glass jaw. A jab ha a purpose and it is not to knock a person out. Yes you should be able to take a person out with either hand. There are many that can't, but it is good when you can. How many pro boxing matches have you seen a one punch knockout from a jab? I'd love to see some footage on that. How often does that happen? I'm betting not often.
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Post by youxia on Aug 22, 2012 14:45:30 GMT -5
Is knocking someone out a question of hitting the right place or power? Is it a large amount of pain, brain hitting the head?
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odee
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Post by odee on Aug 22, 2012 16:23:24 GMT -5
Both in my opinion. What makes the knockout difficult is you're chasing a moving target, one that knows what you're after and might know well enough to protect it.
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Post by youxia on Aug 22, 2012 17:08:52 GMT -5
Does the focus on knocking out come from western cultures? Perhaps just ignorance on my part, but I haven't heard much at all to do with knockouts in Chinese martial arts.
Not excellent phrasing either as I understand karate has a rich history of knocking people out lol
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Post by jwbulldogs on Aug 22, 2012 19:44:52 GMT -5
The focus of knocking people out in my opinion comes from the popularity of boxing. You can end the contest quicker if you knock out your opponent. When a fight ends with a knockout the sports fans get excited. Most fans do not come desiring to see a fight go 10 rounds. They want to see a fighter hit the canvas and can't get up before a 10 count. Likewise in MMA the fans want to see a guy tap out (submit, say uncle). These things sells tickets. Because of the mindset of people that grew up watching those things they often equate those things with self defense. However, in self defense there are a variety of other way to end the threat that are more reliable than trying to knock someone out. Often a fighter or a person that wants to be a fighter are the ones that talk a loot about knocking someone out. But a martial artist can and some will knockout an opponent, but for the most part they are not head hunters.
What I mean by head hunters is that most of the strikes are aimed at the head and face area hoping to knock a person out. A martial artist will work the entire body and know how to destroy any part of the body that is available to be destroyed.
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Post by youxia on Aug 22, 2012 19:50:35 GMT -5
Thanks man, awesome answer
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Post by jwbulldogs on Aug 22, 2012 20:21:37 GMT -5
No problem. What I said is not to take anything away from boxing, boxers, or fighters. I have much respect for them. It is just not my chosen method. I have done some boxing. It was fun. I had a great coach that has produced many pro fighters and champion. I boxed with them before they won their belts. But like things hold true for martial arts. There are many myths in martial arts as well as many that are con artist instead of martial artist. These people give real martial artist a bad name. A good portion of the general public don't know how to separate the facts from fiction, the myths from reality. This will have them have unrealistic beliefs about martial arts or create many doubts about the arts. Either way it doesn't make martial artist look good. Of course we also have those that have little, no knowledge or limited knowledge of martial arts that will make false statements about martial arts that they believe to be true. They will get someone else that is ignorant to agree with them and suddenly what they say become true.
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odee
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Post by odee on Aug 23, 2012 19:02:52 GMT -5
I'd be interested to find out what the most common victories were in the Dojo/Kwoon challenge days. I've heard Oyama was big on knock-outs but on the flip-side Oyama's second art was Queensburry Boxing. This might be one to sling at the Chef, any idea where someone might start looking for results of pre WWII matches?
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Chef Samurai
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Post by Chef Samurai on Aug 23, 2012 19:36:11 GMT -5
odee- www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/cyber.htm has lot's of good stuff but it only deals with america & britain I'm pretty sure and boxing being his 2nd style only reinforces the importance of face punches in kyokushin the art not the sport. @youxia- neither are what causes a real knockout it's the brain rattling that causes a knockout and even people headbanging knock themselves out sometimes lol think of the brain like jello in a container and when you shake it up you get knocked out. that's why wing chun focuses on speed over power because a straight blast rattling the brain even 2 or 3 times just hard enough to make it hit the walls without the fluid protecting it you'll get knocked out. even the 12 punch from boxing was originally meant to work on the same principles but the classical jab is much more powerful than the modern one. getting knocked out from pain is more passing out from shock rather than concussion of the brain so it's not a real knockout in the real sense but more like passing out drunk lol kyoshu jutsu also works on the shock factor by gouging at nerves that overlap eachother it can cause enough pain to cause a knockout by overwhelming the brain with a strong signal.
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Post by jwbulldogs on Aug 23, 2012 19:43:23 GMT -5
Competition wasn't as common in most dojo. If there was a fight the objective was to kill or injure to the point that they were no longer a threat. Knockouts are a part of it but not the objective as a rule. They knew what nerve to hit to cause the lost of consciousnesses. But they also knew how to destroy a limb, take a life, restrict airflow. In many Okinawan dojo that have held the traditions of the past their is no sparring. Most people don't know that. They have what is considered some of the best karate in the land. They spend much of their training of developing better technique. They know how to resuscitate. They know how far to go without causing permanent damage. They are conditioned both physically and mentally to withstand and resist pain. In many cases this has caused some problems physically later on in their lives. Groups that broke off from that lineage modified things to their liking for their personal reasons.
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Post by jwbulldogs on Aug 23, 2012 19:45:00 GMT -5
There is the chef. I thought he would come out when boxing was mentioned....lol
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