Chef Samurai
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Canadian Catch Wrestling
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Post by Chef Samurai on Aug 23, 2012 20:03:31 GMT -5
I'm kinda like a genie but instead of rubbing a lamp just say anything about old school boxing lol
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Post by youxia on Aug 23, 2012 20:15:14 GMT -5
lol ;D
on the brain rattling thing I think wong shun leung said the same thing you said
found it-
"In Wing Chun if you throw two fast punches to someone's head they'll be knocked out. The first punch causes the brain to go to one side of the skull. If a quick second hit comes, the person is knocked out. If you withdraw the hand to give the second punch, then the brain can recover (will have more time to recover), but if you don't give this time then a knockout results."
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Chef Samurai
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Canadian Catch Wrestling
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Post by Chef Samurai on Aug 23, 2012 23:05:51 GMT -5
that makes sense because I heard it from my wc sifu lol
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odee
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Kyokushin 10 years - Brazilian Jujitsu 3 years - Muay Thai 2 years.
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Post by odee on Aug 24, 2012 2:40:47 GMT -5
Chef I was talking about Dojo Challenges not Boxing matches this time. Pre WWII dojo challenges.
JW dojo/kwoon challenges were the reason there were never many tournaments, if you wanted to test your skills you travelled to other schools and tested yourself against their guys, it was a practice that was pretty common across most of Asia but really showcased in feudal Japan and China, this can be prevented these days because of our laws, I know from experience that if someone determinedly doesn't want their school to be challenged it ain't going to happen. It's one of the reason a lot of martial artists continue learning crap, nobody rocks up and shows them that there isn't a decent martial artist in their school. Properly classical martial artists couldn't sue their teachers for getting them hurt which also allowed them to train and spar in a properly brutal manner. If you got hurt it was stiff shit until you recovered, something that made getting hurt decidedly undesirable. It's one of the reasons I repeatedly point out that while I do believe traditional is more hard-core I don't believe that most schools claiming to be traditional are anything more than soft.
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Post by jwbulldogs on Aug 24, 2012 13:22:11 GMT -5
Two quick punches will not necessarily knock out someone. It doesn't take two punches to knockout a person. It can aid in knocking out a person.
Odee you may want to do some more research. Originally martial arts were meant for self defense. The purpose in fighting was not to test your skill. It was to maim or kill. Practice like you said brutal. The conditioning was also brutal. Most people that train today would not last. This was a way of life. You might not even have any formal schooling. You worked the land and you trained. The competition that some participated in was done out of ego or pride. This was frowned on in the culture originally. This is more of a modern concept. Likely due to exposure to Western Cultures. I agree that many school that say they are traditional aren't very traditional. Most are only teaching a sport oriented version of a traditional art.
Of arts like aikido wasn't created to maim or kill even though it is a traditional art. But it was taken from arts that were used to maim or kill. O'Sensei after seeing so much death in the war had some type of religious experience. He no longer wanted to see death or killing. He then modified the arts that he had learned to created an art that allowed you to be able to defend yourself, but that you did not have to kill or cause harm to a human. He constantly changed his art depending on his religious views at the time. Depending on whom were his students at the different times of his religious changes will determined how they trained in his art of aikido.
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odee
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Post by odee on Aug 24, 2012 17:28:08 GMT -5
And most Aikidoka can't fight worth spit so what they do or don't do honestly doesn't matter.
You seem to miss the point of travelling and challenging other schools, pride isn't the driving force, application is the objective. The more different schools you visit the more different people you get to test your skills on and the more variety you are subjected to. During a war this isn't neccessary because survivors of each battle have clashed with any number of people in the space of an hour or so. Even the feudal era in Japan was smattered with years and sometimes decades of peace, during those times students needed to find the variety. That meant travelling.
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Post by jwbulldogs on Aug 24, 2012 22:05:10 GMT -5
Saying most aikidoka can't fight can be said for any type of fighter. Many people take up boxing every day. Most of them can't fight even if their lives depended on it. Most never go pro. Even the majority of them that do they never earn a belt. So far everyone of them that came into our dojo were sent away after being spanked.
You missed the point that traveling and challenging other schools wasn't as common of a practice as you might think. The original purpose of training was survival. It wasn't about testing you skill. It was about a selfish act that say I'm better than you or my style is better than yours. Training was often kept within that set group, family, or clan. When they used their art it was for war or self defense. Anything else was frowned upon in that culture. It wasn't until westerner began to influence them that competing became more popular.
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Post by jwbulldogs on Aug 24, 2012 22:12:25 GMT -5
There is a group of Okinawan that still hold true to traditions of the past better than anyone that I know. I think Possum posted a video that talked about them. It could have been someone else that posted it. It was about 45 minutes long or longer. They visit several different dojo in Okinawa and saw how they trained. The sensei talks about how they don't spar or compete. That wasn't the way karate part of karate's past. He himself used to compete, but have gone back to the old way and now his karate is much better than when he was a karate champion. I don't know any school in the US that trains like they do.
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odee
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Post by odee on Aug 25, 2012 15:56:00 GMT -5
The difference between the Boxer who is never any good and a lot of Aikidoka, Karateka, Judoka and Taekwando students who were never any good is one never got anything to make them believe they were anything but scruff. If you aren't a half decent boxer you will never have anything to show for being a Boxer, there's a lot of the same culture in Kickboxing and most full-contact Karate. For my ten years and shodan grading I'm a nobody in Kyokushin. My three years come september in Muay Thai and Brazilian Jiu-jitsu also equate to me being nobody. I've never beaten anybody worth naming and the guys who have beaten me aren't worth a name either. That's the reality check right there.
Somehow I'm skeptical of that. Giving up sparring and the drive to succeed is never going to make an improvement, giving up sparring alone is possibly the worst thing a martial artist can do.
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Post by jwbulldogs on Aug 26, 2012 15:44:03 GMT -5
I'm not sure where you are going with that one.
But that Okinawan Master that I'm talking about was like a 5 times World or Japanese champion. He was a legend of there. But somewhere in his training he realized that it was incomplete. What he was doing was great for competition, but he was missing things in the art. His research led him back to the old ways that were truly traditional. His technique has improved. His knowledge has increased. He finds the things of his past like competing even though he was winning as being pointless and would not have necessarily saved his life. He is better equipped now that he was ever prior to his enlightenment. In other words I'll use one of your analogies. He was just wasting oxygen before.
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odee
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Post by odee on Aug 26, 2012 22:28:31 GMT -5
Where I'm going is down the beaten Aikido path. The guy who made Aikido was a hard-core warrior and he already had the skill and combat experience to put people down in the most brutal way possible, when he started the pacifist teachings of Aikido he might very well have improved through the desire to stop people without hurting them. HOWEVER. Students who lack that experience with savagery, pain and chaos become technically competent but rarely if ever develop any kind of fighting ability. People who came in because they were bullied will leave as the same kind of wimps they came in as because nobody has tried to beat them down with only victory on their mind. They're still the kind of people who will freeze up under a sustained assault. There is a difference between correct technique and practical technique that people might never come to terms with without that kind of aggression being directed at them.
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Post by jwbulldogs on Aug 27, 2012 7:04:27 GMT -5
How many aikido dojo have you been in to make that type of judgment call?
I know many that now train in aikido that were highly ranked in other arts. Some are career military and would go to war today if asked. I know one the was the Kajukembo representative for the midwest. These are hardcore guys that loved to inflict pain, etc. Bbut now the prefer Aikido. One guy who was a drill sargeant in the marines and the army told me that he wished he had found out and started o train in aikido much sooner. If he had he would not have ever done any of the other martial arts that he has. He is very old school. He is 73 years old now and started training in the 40's if I remember correctly. He is one of the pioneers in the US for learning martial arts. He started learning while in the military and traveling to Japan. Karate was still called Okinawan Te.
I bet you would be very surprised at the pacifist if you ever trained with some at a good school.
Your response is from the perspective of a fighter. The aikidoka are not tying to be a fighter. But they can be very effective at defending themselves or others. I personally know a police officer that work in the city that has been nicknamed murder city. He can tell you of the many times his aikido training has saved his life on the streets at work. Having gone through an aikido test and training I can personally tell you it is not as compliant as you assume from watching youtube. I can't speak for every aikido dojo, but the 3 that I have worked out in. In the most recent place they love when I show up. Especially the top instructors. They request that I actually hit their students. I was told if they can't get out of the way they are supposed to get hit. What ever they do must be able to work in the dojo and outside of the dojo. The students that I hit likes to work with me too. They know they are going to get a realistic attack. Even though I hit them the learn how to improve their technique in order not to get hit.
Some of the best weapons disarms that I've seen was in a Aikido dojo. I se more freezing up in other schools. You'd be surprised at the amount of pressure or stress that is put on a student in the dojo.
There are too many schools that teach that the kata is fighting multiple attackers. That is far from the truth. But in aikido after a certain rank it is a must that you be able to defend against multiple attackers. Some may even use a weapon in the attack. The attacks are not scripted. It can come from any direction.
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odee
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Post by odee on Aug 27, 2012 16:09:07 GMT -5
I've visited several, not only when I was doing the bit of roaming that is encouraged for a Kyokushin shodan but also after I moved and was looking for a new school. I've met people who wish they'd taken up community hall Tai Chi and never done anything else, that doesn't mean they would have been better Martial Artists for it, the health benefits that community hall Tai Chi has are little shy of amazing but they are not training fighters in any sense of the term. Just like in Karate, Kempo, BJJ, Silat and any other Martial Art the top instructors are the cream, they are excellent because they take into account the things that their style lacks and bring it back. What do you think self defense is if not the ability to fight back? It's the ability to attack while being attacked, hit while being hit, that's fighting mate, you can throw any wonderful names on it you like but when someone attacks you and you deal with it you've just fought that person. I don't doubt their technique, technique is not something I've ever had a problem with. The thing that seperates someone who can defend themselves from someone who can't isn't technique it's ability. The ability to apply those techniques come hell or high water and from what I've experienced, seen, heard and read the vast majority of Aikido students, even the higher grade ones, can't continue applying in a sustained assault. In short you're right. They aren't fighters.
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Post by jwbulldogs on Aug 28, 2012 3:12:53 GMT -5
When I boxed I was fighting. It was an exchange. When I competed in judo, etc it was a fight. Again it was an exchange. But on the streets I do not participate in exchanging blows. That's the difference. The other person is not given an option to exchange blows. They are hitting the ground before they knows what happens. I must exercise control over their bodies quickly and end the threat. Whether that is by using a brick, stick, or some combinations of techniques taught in the dojo. You must eliminate the ability and will of the attacker to fight. That is self defense not a fight.
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odee
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Post by odee on Aug 28, 2012 5:45:31 GMT -5
People in competitions rarely choose to exchange blows, that exchange happens because they are rarely dealing with people who can't fight, they exchange blows because their opponent almost always knows how to move to reduce damage, look at Bas Rutten and his ability to break ribs and organs on dummies, he gets it every single time because the dummy can't see it coming and move to lessen the impact, his actual success in busting ribs and organs on other fighters is limited to about three matches out of fifty odd professional fights simply because a person can move an inch and instead of hitting a third of an inch of rib and shattereing it Bas' fist is now glancing off three inches of rib or hitting a defending forearm instead of sinking into the desired target. I prepare for the possibility that I might not have a choice in the matter. I can't guarantee that I'm going to take every punk down with one shot, neither can you, neither can anyone else. That's when they're going to swing back and that's when you need to know how to fight. Then it depends on the person you wind up having to deal with, it might be someone you can put out in one shot, it might also be someone who is your equal or better in skill. Once again the better fighter will be the one who walks away from it. I'll also point out that unless you have a super sense that lets you know anyone intent on hurting you is coming you're going to be in the same position as a boxer who has been cornered in the ring and have to fight your way back to a decent position. Fighting ability is what saves a person's arse when things don't go according to plan and in a modern self defense situation you almost always begin defending yourself AFTER some bastard has just failed to put you down with a king hit. It's all well and good to say "I'll just destroy his knee" not such an easy thing to accomplish when you're dizzy and seeing four of the damn things.
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